{"version":1,"type":"rich","provider_name":"Libsyn","provider_url":"https:\/\/www.libsyn.com","height":90,"width":600,"title":"Four Core Audiences: Your Email, the Lookalike Email, Your Web, and the Lookalike Web","description":"Chris Carr, President and CEO of Farotech, started his agency 19 years ago as a web development company, moved into SEO, and then transitioned to what Chris calls conversion science. Today, Chris says, his agency builds integrated systems that generate leads, nurture leads into clients, and then convert clients into brand ambassadors who refer new clients to the brand. Chris says that most companies spend a majority of their time and effort generating leads \u2013 and then alternating between generating leads and reacting to the results. He emphasizes that businesses can\u2019t depend on a single marketing platform. A properly designed system, like a flywheel, maintains consistent momentum, gains power, and generates \u201creally great results.\u201d Farotech \u201cdeep dives\u201d for 2 months into a client\u2019s marketing, discusses a client\u2019s unique selling proposition, compares it to customer search volumes, and applies a software that identifies first top ten relevant Google search results in a client\u2019s market niche. Evaluating the \u201cwinners\u2019\u201d readability, content, content length, infographics, and backlinks yields information about what the client company needs to do to beat the competition. After Farotech understands a client\u2019s messaging requirements for both global audiences and the client\u2019s segmented audiences, the agency writes great, value-imbued, data-based content. Pushing data and information makes content sharable, Chris says.  The agency provides a strategic 3- to 5-year roadmap that highlights gaps and opportunities and, over time, recommends messaging tweaks to keep the client \u201cat the top.\u201d One technique Farotech uses to great advantage is placing Pixel on a client\u2019s page to track visitor conversions, optimize ads, build targeted audiences for future ads, and remarket to people who have made a purchase. Pixel is very useful for capturing \u201clookalike audiences,\u201d people who are unaware of a company and its offerings, but who are demographically similar to a company\u2019s \u201cgood customers\u201d or similarly challenged. Finding the \u201clookalike\u201d audiences for a client\u2019s emails and for its website users greatly expands opportunities. Chris says that blog messages should be targeted, polished, and personalized and delivered at least once a week in order for the blogger to be recognized as a thought leader.  Chris says he likes to \u201cfail as fast as I can, and then adjust and then keep going and keep going.\u201d He believes it is very important to invest in training staff, and lauds Greg Crabtree\u2019s book, Simple Numbers, as an effective guide for \u201cwhen to cut and when to hire. Chris can be reach on his company\u2019s website at: farotech.com consultation. Those who would like a consultation should email: info@farotech.com. He believes most companies will find this initial consultation invaluable. \u201cHe says, We work really hard to tell you where you\u2019re weak, where you should go from here. Even if you don\u2019t use us, these are the three things you should be doing, things like that.\u201d  Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I\u2019m your host, Rob Kischuk. I am joined today by Chris Carr, President and CEO at Farotech based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the podcast, Chris. CHRIS: Hey, thanks for having me. ROB: It\u2019s fantastic to have you here. Why don\u2019t you start off by telling us about Farotech and what superpower you all bring to the world of marketing agencies? CHRIS: Thanks for asking. I stared Farotech about 19 years ago. We started out as a web development company, then slowly moved into SEO, and then from SEO into what we call a conversion science. What I mean by that is when clients come to me, they usually say, \u201cIf I could only figure out my SEO, then all my problems would be solved\u201d or \u201cIf I was only good at social media\u201d or something like that. What I often say is, \u201cHey, if you are basically wrapping all of your marketing around one particular solution, then you\u2019re building your house on sand.\u201d What we try to make the argument of is we build systems, not solutions. If marketing is done right and it\u2019s turned into a system, essentially you have a system that generates leads, nurtures leads into clients, and then converts clients into brand ambassadors. And those brand ambassadors are going to be those loyal fans who create referrals for your brand. So, the superpower that I would have is I\u2019m going to help strategize that in the beginning of the process and help our clients get to that spot. ROB: Where are they typically starting from? Are they just spending on anything? Are they trying to do some of these tactics that someone told them they should do, and they\u2019re coming to you because they\u2019re trying to be amazing at SEO even though they can barely spell it? Where are they coming from? CHRIS: I think most people spend the large majority of their time in lead generation. They\u2019re going to come to me saying that they might write a couple blogs. What I find is that most companies are what I call reactive marketers as opposed to proactive marketers. The reactive marketer is the idea that we live this life of quiet desperation. We have a tradeshow, so we sprint for the tradeshow, or it\u2019s Christmas season and we need to get our products ready for that. I worked a lot in the healthcare space; certain sports change how they market. You sprint and then relax and then sprint and then relax. A system doesn\u2019t do that. A system is kind of like Jim Collin\u2019s Flywheel. It just keeps spinning and spinning and spinning. Momentum turns into power, and power turns into really great results. ROB: I think a lot of people aspire to this sort of thing, but they very quickly realize that they don\u2019t really know what they should be talking about that\u2019s interesting to their audience. How do you think about that? What\u2019s an example of an industry where you\u2019ve seen it could be hard for them to think about what to say, but in fact there is a system that can be put in play that makes a lot of sense once you get your head around it? CHRIS: That\u2019s a really great question. Unfortunately, I think Google tells you what to say in a lot of ways. You know your general topic; you have great products and services. It\u2019s shocking that when you say it the way you say it and then I look in Google and I\u2019m saying, \u201cHey, what you think the audience wants and what they\u2019re actually searching for \u2013 you can try really hard to be great at your brand, but you\u2019re trying to convert the masses on something they don\u2019t even know about.\u201d What happens is I\u2019ll sit down with a client and we\u2019ll talk about their unique selling proposition, and then I\u2019ll compare it to search volumes and say, \u201cHey, we create your messaging. These are the tweaks you\u2019re probably going to have to make. Do you agree or disagree?\u201d If it\u2019s your brand, I want it to be sacred and I want to protect that, but if it\u2019s about volume and generating leads, then we might have to tweak or pivot or move. ROB: That certainly makes sense. Are you looking at that through the lens \u2013 I think level zero of this is you type what you think you\u2019re talking about into Google and see what else gets suggested, but then there\u2019s this deeper level of maybe search console and some other keywords. How do you dive down that rabbit hole and start finding out what they\u2019re actually talking about in the eyes of their customers? CHRIS: We develop a gap assessment right at the onset of working with a client. That\u2019s a 2-month deep dive into a client, their marketing. It\u2019s a 3- to 5-year roadmap to understand where the gaps are, where the opportunities are. But most importantly, I\u2019ve got to understand your messaging and what your vision is and how you create effective messaging for not just the global audience, but to segmented audiences too. Within that process, what we try to do is once I\u2019ve figured out your messaging, we have certain pieces of software that before we even publish, it\u2019s going to tell you who\u2019s in the top 10 spots on the first page of Google, who those top 10 companies are, and what kind of content you\u2019ve got to create to beat them. I might look at readability, I might look at the length of content, I might look at the fact that they have infographics or backlinks. As I start to create that message, I\u2019m going to say, we\u2019re going to base this piece of content on data, not on hunches. That\u2019s where we start. We start with the data. ROB: Interesting. It seems evident that at some point you\u2019re going to want to atomize this content, push it out into social, push it out into paid social, push it out even into \u2013 maybe what resonates even turns into some press. How do you get down to that next layer? I think there\u2019s probably some ways where the search data is the truth and the tools you have are the truth, and there\u2019s some places where on each platform, the audience is looking for something slightly different. CHRIS: At the genuine level, we write content for our clients. We\u2019ll interview our clients through a number of different ways so our writers write really great content. It starts with writing great content. That\u2019s table stakes. You\u2019ve got to have great content. It has to have value. I always say that it should push data and information because that\u2019s what makes content sharable. But then it has to go into the system. I\u2019ll just get very tactical about it. We write content for blogs. Blogs get syndicated through social media channels. Then we\u2019ll use paid channels to reach certain target audiences. We\u2019ll use multiple different platforms but say it\u2019s Facebook. I\u2019ll Pixel on my client\u2019s computer. We\u2019ll find out, what are the visitors doing when they come to your website? Then I\u2019ll be able to get your messaging to that target and then a lookalike audience as well. So now I\u2019m reaching people that don\u2019t even know you exist, but they are similar demographics or have certain challenges and things like that. ROB: Very interesting. That\u2019s been surprisingly effective for quite a while, but it kind of makes sense. Figure out how to drive the audience and then make sure you Pixel for retargeting and the lookalike audience. That combined with, maybe if you\u2019re capturing some emails, a lookalike on the email audience, those are sometimes those core four audiences: your email, the lookalike email, the web, and the lookalike web. CHRIS: Yeah. That\u2019s it in a nutshell. I forgot to mention that we do \u2013 not email blasts, but we do very targeted emails. I think the key you also want to include into that mix is segmentation. If you send one message to your entire audience, unless you have a very niche product \u2013 for example, we have a buyer persona that\u2019s a general business; then we have SaaS companies, then we have healthcare companies, and then we have manufacturing. There\u2019s very specific information that I share to healthcare companies that I don\u2019t want my manufacturing potential clients to hear. It just doesn\u2019t make sense. And I don\u2019t want to water down a message that can be used for everybody. I\u2019d rather send a very segmented, polished, personalized message to a smaller audience than carpet bomb your entire database with a generalized message that doesn\u2019t bring value. ROB: Sure. How do you think about frequency amongst those different segments? Do you just hit each one when you have something to say? How do you make sure you\u2019re not neglecting something too long? CHRIS: We try to do at least a minimum of one blog a week. Everyone talks about Google\u2019s best practices, and I think we make them up as we go along. But we found is what we call it link velocity. If you can keep up that link velocity from an aspect of at least one blog a week, usually what happens is you establish yourself as a thought leader and Google starts to recognize that. What I don\u2019t believe is that you should just be a mill. Don\u2019t just publish content to publish content. What we do is sit down with a client and we develop an editorial calendar. In an editorial calendar, you\u2019re going to know what content goes out in the next 30, 60, or 90 days. We leave some room for things to be nimble because things change, the news changes. Pandemics happen.  ROB: Yes, they do. CHRIS: But for the most part, you want to be in a scenario where frequency of about once a week is pretty good. Especially if you\u2019re sending out email communication as well, you don\u2019t want to be blasting people every day. It\u2019s kind of funny; I have a cellphone, and I also ride a bike. It\u2019s just something you do when you\u2019re old to stay in shape. I bought my iPhone case from a company called Rokform. Probably shouldn\u2019t have said their name. Anyhow, the case is really awesome. Connects to my bike. Really, really awesome. But the fact that they feel like they need to email me every single day is beyond annoying. It went from me being a loyal fan to me being like, dude, I\u2019ve got to get around to unsubscribing, but I shouldn\u2019t have to unsubscribe because you should know your audience better. Like, how many phone cases are you going to buy in the next 5 years of your life? Two? One? Just a pet peeve, but it relates to the frequency of communication. ROB: Yeah, our own experiences certainly inform those conversations around frequency. I\u2019m sure a lot of people can relate. You buy a pair of shoes and then a week later they\u2019re like, \u201cDo you want some more shoes?\u201d It\u2019s like, I am not that customer segment. I am not the weekly shoe buying guy. I buy a pair of shoes about every 6 months, and if you want to retarget me in 6 months and ask me for some shoes, I\u2019ll probably buy some. CHRIS: Yeah, you should be talking to my wife. [laughs] That\u2019s my wife\u2019s rhythm, about one pair a week. But for me \u2013 yeah. ROB: Different customer segments. There it is. CHRIS: Big time. ROB: Chris, you mentioned that you started off not really even intending to start an agency, starting off in web development. What made you realize that this was actually going to be a business that was viable, that was going to stick around for a little bit? CHRIS: Started the business about 6 months before 9\/11. I was working at a private company called Vanguard. They\u2019re an investment company. I was trying to get into IT there. Thought I wanted to be in IT; what I really wanted is marketing. I got that job, and then 3 days later, 9\/11 happened and they said, \u201cHey, we\u2019re going to have to put you back at your old job.\u201d I was a phone jockey. I was a registered rep, and I was talking to people on the phone at a call center like 8 hours a day. It was at one of those spots where I\u2019m sitting in the parking lot like, \u201cI just don\u2019t want to go in there.\u201d Anyhow, 6 months later, 9\/11 happens and I have no wife, I have no kids. It takes me a whopping $1500 a month to pay my life and my bills. I was like, \u201cYou know what? Screw it. I\u2019m just going to go out and do this thing.\u201d Started the business. Got immediately gobbled up as a consultant for a couple years, working in a marketing company that specialized in pharma, and then 2 years later went on and started the agency. How do you know it happens? You don\u2019t. It\u2019s funny; my business partner was texting me this morning and talking about payroll and he\u2019s like, \u201cI think I have kidney stones.\u201d [laughs] You never wake up and feel like, \u201cWow, this whole agency this is just a dream. There\u2019s never a bad day.\u201d We started a dream, wanted to do this thing, created a product, got a client. That client led to two clients. Two clients led to more employees. More employees led to more clients. You just wake up one day, 19 years later, 150+ clients, 50 employees, and you\u2019re just \u2013 I joke around that it took 19 years to be an overnight success. ROB: [laughs] It becomes a lot of mouths to feed. I think one of those temptations for many folks in the agency world is to maybe look a little bit jealously at their SaaS clients. Of course, the grass always looks greener on the other side. How have you looked at that? \u201cMan, it would be nice to have a product with 90% gross margins and the money keeps coming in.\u201d CHRIS: Yep. Well, be careful what you wish for, because I have SaaS clients, and they say, \u201cGetting them to buy the software is the easy part. We make all the money in the service.\u201d I\u2019m like, dude, I\u2019m a service company that wants to build a product. You\u2019re a product company and you want to start a service. [laughs] Dude, you don\u2019t want to talk to people. It happens. One of the things that\u2019s very interesting in the SaaS space is if you don\u2019t have VC funding or you don\u2019t have a pretty good cushion, marketing is scary. What I mean by that is \u2013 I use the analogy of Photoshop. Photoshop would sell for anywhere between $300 and $500 back in the day before SaaS was actually SaaS. Do you remember Photoshop before it was SaaS? ROB: Oh yeah. I remember people asking who was going to buy Photoshop on a monthly payment when you can just buy the shrink-wrap or the download. CHRIS: Yeah. Honestly, I think most of it was just downloaded illegally anyway. It was terrible. [laughs] It was the early 2000s. Napster was there, and software was not free. But yeah, nothing like going on a podcast and admitting illegal activity, right? ROB: \u201cI have a friend.\u201d CHRIS: I have a friend, right? [laughs] It was a decade ago. But let\u2019s say you go out and buy the software and it costs $500 bucks. Now you\u2019re like, \u201cWe\u2019re going to lower that barrier of entry and make it $19.99. No one\u2019s going to cancel on us because we got them for $19.99.\u201d I\u2019m like, that\u2019s like $480 in cash flow that you don\u2019t have right now. It\u2019s going to take you 30 months for you to reclaim that other $500 bucks. It\u2019s awesome in the aspect of you\u2019ve eliminated your barrier of entry, you stay competitive and stuff like that, but cash flow is king. I have SaaS clients, and the number one thing I\u2019m looking for is, are you sustainable? Because if you don\u2019t have that core number of clients, man, it gets scary pretty quick. ROB: Right. You being in Philadelphia, I know there are some investors there, but it\u2019s not the Bay Area and it\u2019s not even New York, I don\u2019t imagine. That services dimension of it can be a function of SaaS survival in a non-VC-heavy market. CHRIS: Yeah. It\u2019s a critical call to make. How do you want to live? Sometimes you\u2019ve got to do the service until you can just be product only. And I respect that.  I respect anybody who\u2019s going to say, \u201cI do what it takes, and when the landscape changes, then I\u2019ll pivot.\u201d I can respect that. ROB: Oh yeah, I\u2019ve certainly been down that path. It\u2019s hard from a pride perspective, and I\u2019m sure we all get told what we\u2019re supposed to be when our company grows up and how it looks and what you\u2019re not supposed to do. Sometimes practicality and eating that pride \u2013 and also just realizing who it is that you want to be instead of who it is that other people want you to be is such a key step. CHRIS: And then you\u2019re also worrying about \u2013 I think there\u2019s a phrase that says for every level, there\u2019s another devil. What happens here is that you switch out of that service-based model, you\u2019re basically just a SaaS company from the regular sense of the word, but then your whole day is lead generation, lead nurturing, and then most importantly \u2013 which is something you didn\u2019t have to worry about before \u2013 you\u2019re always worrying about retention. It\u2019s one of those things where when a pandemic happens, you might be the first thing that goes. And that\u2019s a scary predicament too. I remember specifically, our company hadn\u2019t taken a hit. We thought we were going to take a hit. My business partner \u2013 he\u2019s the COO, but he also does the CFO type stuff \u2013 came to me with this long list of everybody that we buy from, and he\u2019s like, \u201cThis is the list of the people that can go. They\u2019re what I would call \u2018nice-to-haves.\u2019\u201d That\u2019s a scary spot to be in if you\u2019re SaaS. One of the things from a SaaS standpoint is the same thing I say to people that are in employment. Make yourself unfirable. If you are a SaaS product that lives on the periphery of \u201cnice-to-have,\u201d you\u2019re nice to have, but you can also be very forgettable.  ROB: That\u2019s true on SaaS. I think there\u2019s an extent to which that\u2019s also true in services, though. You can have a contract, but when March 15th, 2020 hits, if a client comes to you and says, \u201cHey, we\u2019re going to be done for a while,\u201d what most people are going to do and what\u2019s probably prudent is to say, \u201cOkay, I understand. Let us know how we can help you.\u201d You\u2019re not going to fight and be like, \u201cYou\u2019ve got 9 months left and another $90K on this contract, so you\u2019ve got to pay up, bud.\u201d CHRIS: That\u2019s where, for us, we always have a roadmap. The roadmap is even clients who say, \u201cHey, we\u2019re not seeing the results,\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cGreat. We charted this roadmap together. Where did we go wrong? Where do you disagree? Because you agreed to the same roadmap too. We might not be where we\u2019re at right now but look at where we\u2019re going. If you don\u2019t believe in where we\u2019re at now, do you believe in what\u2019s a mile down the road?\u201d If they say yes, then you say, \u201cLet\u2019s journey on this together. I\u2019m on this journey with you.\u201d I want to be in a scenario here where I can be very vulnerable with you and just say, \u201cWhere are you suffering? Which part of this process isn\u2019t working, and what can we put a little bit more energy into?\u201d as opposed to cutting the cord. I think one of the things we try very hard to do is to not be a vendor. We try to be a partner. I hate people that overuse that, but that\u2019s exactly how it works for us. We have clients that are like, \u201cWe\u2019ve got to do another advertising campaign, and I forget what we said about this, this, and this. Farotech, what do we say about that?\u201d I\u2019ll be like, \u201cDude, it\u2019s your company. You don\u2019t know what you said about that?\u201d I mean, it\u2019s an honor and a privilege, but you become so ingrained in who they are that they forget what\u2019s been said about them, what they even say about themselves. ROB: Makes sense. Chris, you\u2019ve given us some nuggets already, but if you rewind and think about the 19 years of the company, what are some lessons you\u2019ve learned along the way that you might do a little bit differently if you were starting afresh in 2020? CHRIS: I got this questionnaire from you before we started talking and I knew this was coming, and it\u2019s so funny \u2013 I told my assistant, it matters what day it is. Literally, I consider myself a lifetime learner, but I also say that those last 19 years, I\u2019ve Forrest Gump\u2019d my way to this spot right now. Meaning I like to fail as fast as I can. Everything I\u2019m saying here sounds clich\u00e9, but I like to fail forward, I like to fail as fast as I can, and then adjust and then keep going and keep going. I think the number one lesson that I\u2019ve learned is if you just keep on swimming, if you just keep on pushing through the hard times, usually what happens here is the sheer diligence is enough. Especially in the service-based industry. In the product-based industry, it can be a little bit tougher because of competition. ROB: Sure. Those landscapes can change and there\u2019s things that can happen. It doesn\u2019t matter how much you keep swimming; you\u2019re not going to rebuild your Groupon competitor today and have it thrive like crazy. CHRIS: I don\u2019t think Tom from Myspace is going to make this dramatic resurgence against Facebook. I think at this point Mark\u2019s got him. But for the most part, I\u2019ve seen two economic downfalls. Now I\u2019ve survived through a pandemic. We signed our first million-dollar client; a year later, we decided to part from that client. I had all the staff from that client that I refused to let go of, and I tried to be a solider and say \u201cI\u2019m going to sell my way out of this,\u201d which I failed miserably. They ended up hating me on their way out anyway, even though I\u2019m putting their salaries on my credit card. It\u2019s terrible to say \u2013 took me almost 7 years to dig out of that hole of salaries. However, I would do it again because of the things I\u2019ve learned. Nothing would have forced my hand like reaching the bottom of the barrel. That\u2019s just the way it is. ROB: Right. It\u2019s not that you would do it that way again; it\u2019s that doing it that way taught you more about the next time. CHRIS: Oh, I\u2019m sorry, yeah, I wouldn\u2019t say I\u2019d do it again. I\u2019d say I wouldn\u2019t change it. In other words, unfortunately I feel like God wanted me to take this road so that I could \u2013 I don\u2019t think I would\u2019ve learned if this didn\u2019t happen to me. ROB: Yeah. How do you now think about that alignment between the team that\u2019s working on a client, the revenue and team \u2013 you never want to think about when to cut the line, but there\u2019s a very tight alignment between revenue and staff in a services business. CHRIS: Yeah, we had to hire a consultant. Right now we use two different companies. One is called CEO Think Tank, where we run all of our numbers through them. The other one is called Simple Numbers. Simple Numbers is this really advanced accounting and virtual CFO service. They look at our numbers. We live and die by data of utilization rates, of client growth, of sales growth. There\u2019s a balance between knowing who to have on your team and when to have them on your team and stuff like that. We have an exceptionally high retention of employees, which has been wonderful, and that \u2013 I don\u2019t know how to describe it. Training is probably the most expensive part of an agency because we do what we believe is some radical things, and you can\u2019t just pull a geek off the street and say, \u201cHey, guess what? You have an account now.\u201d So, investing in people, investing in training has made a big dividend for us. When we look at the numbers, we\u2019re really hard and we really push back when the numbers say your staff is bloated. We get that a lot. We have more staff than work. We get that a lot, but our pushback is that the more trained our staff is, the better job they do. The better job they do, the more clients stick around. And when you have a retention rate of clients in the 90s, you don\u2019t have to sell as much because your clients stuck around. If you bleed clients, you might think you\u2019re saving money because you have fewer employees, but you\u2019re spending way more in sales and marketing to try to get new clients that just fell off the bus. My analogy is falling through, but you get my point? ROB: Yeah. Simple Numbers \u2013 is that Greg Crabtree and the labor-efficiency ratio and all that jazz? CHRIS: Oh yeah, you\u2019re from that area. I think they\u2019re from down that way, aren\u2019t they? ROB: I think he\u2019s over in Alabama. I could be wrong. CHRIS: Yeah, he\u2019s a total rock star. Read the book. The book, to me \u2013 it\u2019s called Simple Numbers, but it could\u2019ve been called \u201cSimple Greek.\u201d I require a business partner who can read that stuff. I pay someone to do my taxes. I pay someone to read my email. [laughs] All I do is talk marketing. They show me the numbers and they show me the stuff, and then we make decisions from there. But for the most part, if you trust the data, it all comes out well in the end. ROB: That makes sense. People should definitely dig in, read it. It\u2019s a good guide. When to cut, when to hire. All helpful in there. Chris, when people want to find you and Farotech, where should they go to find you? CHRIS: They should go to farotech.com. You can email us if you want to get a consultation. It\u2019s info@farotech.com. One thing I will say is that if you reach out and we do a consultation, this is not a glorified sales pitch. You\u2019re going to learn more about your business in an hour than \u2013 we try really hard to bring a lot of value to the client as opposed to just using that as an opportunity to market and pitch our services. We work really hard to tell you where you\u2019re weak, where you should go from here. Even if you don\u2019t use us, these are the three things you should be doing, things like that.  ROB: Fantastic. We\u2019ll put that in the show notes. I hope people will reach out. It has been a pleasure, Chris, getting to know you and Farotech. Thank you. CHRIS: Thanks again. ROB: All right. Be well. Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com. ","author_name":"The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast","author_url":"http:\/\/spinutech.com","html":"