{"version":1,"type":"rich","provider_name":"Libsyn","provider_url":"https:\/\/www.libsyn.com","height":90,"width":600,"title":"HOJ 009: Andie Kramer: Jockstrap Jokes, Breaking Through Bias, and Goldilocks","description":"Welcome to Heels of Justice; these are the stories of women lawyers who are trailblazers in their field and paved the way for the rest of us. Today, the Heels of Justice interview Andrea (Andie) S. Kramer, author and Partner in the international law firm of McDermott Will & Emery LLP, which was just listed as one of the \u201c10 Best Big Law Firms for Female Attorneys.\u201d Andie is head of the firm\u2019s Financial Products, Trading, and Derivatives Group, and is the founding chair of the firm\u2019s Gender Diversity Committee and currently serves as its co-chair. She has served on both her firm\u2019s Management Committee and Compensation Committee. In these roles, she became deeply concerned about the disparities in the pace and extent of women\u2019s and men\u2019s career achievements. Key Takeaways [:29] Katherine welcomes Andie Kramer, lawyer and author to the Heels of Justice podcast. [1:12] How did Andie end up writing her first book on gender dynamics in law firms? [3:19] What was the response Andie got to the Self-evaluation do\u2019s and Don\u2019ts a piece she wrote about 12 years ago? [4:29] Were there any changes in self-evaluations by women after the training was initially offered at her firm? [6:23] Once women start talking about themselves as rockstars, is there anything else that needs to be done to ensure that message is received positively? [8:35] What is the Goldilocks dilemma? [9:20] Katherine asks for some very pragmatic advice on how to navigate a boardroom interruption (we also learn there was a necessity to create a tip sheet for this specific issue!). [11:45] Doesn\u2019t this whole \u201ctips and advice for women\u201d just generate more work for women just to stand shoulder to shoulder with their peers? [14:08] Katherine asks Andie to describe benevolent sexism, as it was an issue she always knew about but never managed to express clearly. [16:50] How are women to respond to benevolent sexism? [18:07] Andie shares an outrageous anecdote from her book. [20:34] What led Andie to become a lawyer? [24:11] Katherine asks Andie to share a moment when she advocated for herself. [27:33] How about a time when Andie experienced failure? And what about the recovery from such a failure? [32:30] Katherine asks if Andie has advice for women just out of law schools, in terms of picking a firm. Alternatively, what can law firms do to ensure a higher rate of senior women within their ranks? [33:55] What about advice Andie would have for her younger self? [35:05] Katherine asks Andie what the biggest risk she took was. [36:30] And finally, what motivates Andie to write when she could be spending this time just being the awesome lawyer that she is? [37:15] Katherine thanks Andie for participating on the Heels of Justice podcast, and she signs off until next time.   That\u2019s it for this episode of Heels of Justice; if you like the stories we\u2019re telling, please visit our website. You can join our mailing list, learn more about our guests and see what we have planned for the future. You can also follow us on Twitter, on Instagram, and on Facebook. Disclaimer: The opinions you have heard are ours or our guest\u2019s alone. They\u2019re not the opinions of our employers, or our clients, or our bosses, and not our husbands, kids or pets or anyone else\u2019s.   Mentioned in this episode (chronological order) McDermott Will & Emery Book: Breaking Through Bias: Communication Techniques for Women to Succeed at Work, by Andrea S. Kramer and Alton B. Harris The Goldilocks Dilemma Tip sheet on interruptions Impression management Benevolent sexism Title IX Book: It\u2019s Not You It\u2019s the Workplace: Women\u2019s Conflict at Work and the Bias that Built It, by Andrea S. Kramer and Alton B. Harris   More about the Heels of Justice, Sarita Venkat, and Katherine Minarik Heels of Justice on the Web Heels of Justice on Twitter Heels of Justice on Instagram Heels of Justice on Facebook   Sarita Venkat on LinkedIn Katherine Minarik on LinkedIn Katherine Minarik on Twitter Katherine Minarik at cleverbridge   Andie\u2019s personal stories (edited) \u201cI was on our compensation committee and what I found was that the women would write their self-evaluations very modestly: \u2018I was on the ABC team and I worked with Katherine, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so\u2026\u2019 but the men would write their self-evaluations \u2018I\u2019m a total rock star and I saved the world for democracy, and I\u2019m everything!\u2019 It struck me because who do you think is going to make more money? The very first piece that I wrote was about self-evaluation do\u2019s and don\u2019ts as to what women need to do in order to advocate for themselves.\u201d \u201cI was probably 13 years old and my social studies class went to the criminal court building and we saw the defense putting on a murder trial and seeing a piece of a murder trial from the defense side obviously makes you think the person is innocent. So I was going to find a way to save the world. I told my parents I was going to be a lawyer, and they knew a lawyer, so they asked him if he would take me to lunch and give me career advice \u2014 this is before women were really admitted to law school in any numbers (the \u201960s) \u2014 so this man takes me to lunch and proceeds to spend the entire time telling me that I did not want to be a lawyer because nobody likes lady lawyers. \u2018Lady lawyers are lonely, they don\u2019t have any friends; I would never have a family, I would never get married; no one would ever love me!\u2019 and that was his lunch. \u2026 When he assured me that it was a terrible thing, I concluded that I was going to do it, and I could manage those things.\u201d   More about Andrea S. Kramer Andrea S. Kramer at McDermott Will & Emery Andrea S. Kramer on LinkedIn Andrea S. Kramer (Andie & Al) Mentoring ","author_name":"Heels of Justice","author_url":"http:\/\/www.heelsofjustice.com","html":"