{"version":1,"type":"rich","provider_name":"Libsyn","provider_url":"https:\/\/www.libsyn.com","height":90,"width":600,"title":"E1. Story of A Workplace Asshole-Part 1","description":"Show Transcript [Section I: Introduction] Welcome to the Work Stories Project. I\u2019m your host Carol Xu. Oh, workplace assholes. Have you ever worked with one? Have you ever wondered what\u2019s going on in their head when they\u2019re making other people miserable? Well, I\u2019ve got an interesting story for you. We\u2019ll hear the victims\u2019 perspective first. Then, we can also get into a workplace asshole\u2019s head and poke around a little and ask him questions like \u201cSo, were you aware that others regarded you as an asshole? And how did that feel?\u201d So, let\u2019s get started.  [music] [Section II: The Coworkers\u2019 Perspective] Our story took place in a silicon valley startup named Bisnet in the early two thousands. The main product of the company was an online platform and database to help other companies manage their employee data, such as payroll, insurance, and employee benefits. Mark was the lead software engineer in the company. He was regarded as the workplace asshole by many of his co-workers, especially the implementation coordinators. The implementation coordinators, or let\u2019s call them ICs from now on, had to interface with both Mark and the clients. They just HATED working with Mark. Here\u2019s what Letitia, an IC at the time, recalls her experience working with Mark: Letitia: He wasn\u2019t very popular. Some people thought he had a self-righteous attitude. And he was exhibiting more signs of \u201cWell, I\u2019m the most important person here.\u201d For example, Mark once proposed in a group discussion that as the web master of BISNET\u2019s website, he\u2019d like his email to be God@BISNET.com Letitia: he wanted that to be his email for if you have any questions or comments about this site or whatever. That was shot down rather quickly. But that\u2019s kind of how he saw himself, at least in my eyes and other people. I think they thought he viewed himself as God of Bisnet. Miles, the executive vice president at BISNET at the time recalls going to one of the Company\u2019s Christmas parties. He heard Mark\u2019s mom talking about Mark in front of the group, Miles: His mother would try to elevate his status and raise how important he was\u2026 And so, we already know what Mark\u2019s ego was on that topic. And you got the mom. And you saw some of the dynamics going on. That\u2019s what I remember.   Although Mark didn\u2019t have any formal managerial power over others, he played an indispensable role in the company. Because he was in charge of developing BISNET\u2019s sole product, the company\u2019s business to a large extent relied on his work. Miles likened Mark to someone who holds the keys to your car. Miles: Again, the situation was challenging when you got somebody that\u2019s hard to work with that holds the keys to the car. It\u2019s not a place you\u2019d like to be. He had a little bit free reign, because he could do what he wanted, because he had the keys to the car. If he walked, we would be in big trouble. In everyday work, the ICs felt like they had to beg Mark to answer technical questions or to improve the software to accommodate customer requests. Here\u2019s Letitia again, Letitia: Oh, there were many people that just hated dealing with him at all. It\u2019s like they would do anything to avoid having anything to do with him because there was a little bit of the \u201cawkh, what do you want now?\u201d kind of thing. And the conceit, you know, \u2018you need to bow to me because I\u2019m the one who\u2019s gonna be able to fix this for you.\u2019 That doesn\u2019t always work very well. (laugh) I ask her whether Mark had the power to directly affect her job security, Letitia: while he may not necessarily have the power to affect my job directly, he could affect how things got done for the customers that I had to be face-to-face with. And that\u2019s a biggie, because I had one customer that, while I was face-to-face with her, she started crying because she was spending so many hours fixing problems that the system was creating. That made me feel just awful! I wanted to fix it for her. I probably thought that I would piss him off and he wouldn\u2019t get my customers enhancements or requirement changes taken care of. And then I\u2019m still hanging out there having to face the customer. It became more of a personal \u2018I\u2019m gonna do this for you,\u2019 instead of \u2018my job is to improve the system for our clients.\u2019 And that is dangerous territory for any employment situation, any professional environment. You can\u2019t make it about a personal situation \u2018I\u2019m doing this for you.\u2019 More than 14 years later, Letitia still vividly remembers this one time when the whole team including Mark were working on a project overnight,  Letitia: I think one of the things that he emphasized was something like \u2018I can always find another job. I\u2019m just worried about the rest of you.\u2019 Oh wait a minute, what you were saying is that none of the rest of us is bringing any value. And we are here because we can\u2019t get another job? (laugh) It\u2019s a real put-down. I also get to talk to Bret, one of the few friends Mark had in the company at the time. Mark introduced Bret to work at an IT support position at BISNET. Bret recalls that Mark liked to argue with others. Bret: I saw a few times he would... He was really good at arguing. [Laugh] He should\u2019ve been on the debate team when he was in school, because he definitely had a point of view and he defended it till the last. I\u2019ve seen incidences where he would\u2026He didn\u2019t exactly yell, but he made people feel small. Like he wouldn\u2019t out loud say \u2018you are an idiot.\u2019 But he would essentially imply that with what he would say. I did hear that a couple times. Making people feel small\u2014I really like Bret\u2019s way of putting it. It kind of summarizes our experience dealing with most assholes. Why would they do that? I\u2019ve got to talk to at least one asshole to find out! [short music break] Section III: The asshole\u2019s perspective          So I manage to have a series of long conversations with Mark over the period of 3 months. You may wonder whether it is hard to track him down and get him to talk. Well, it is easy in this case. He happens to be my husband. And in fact he has volunteered the story to me.           He worked at BISNET long before we met. I had little knowledge of his BISNET years. When he shares the story with me, I treat him just like any other story contributor to the show. I don\u2019t try to make him look better or worse than who he is or was. My role is to provide a special space for reflection. Imagine a space where you can feel at ease and be yourself without any internal or external judgments. That\u2019s the space I hope to co-create with all my story contributors. You may think of your work experience as monotonous and boring. To you, it may taste like bland water. But to me, every drop of your experience has a unique sound and feel. I want to be a soundboard that reflects all kinds of qualities in the human experience of work.           Mark and I start our first free-form conversation in our living room on a Saturday morning. When I ask Mark to tell the story from the beginning, he starts with his back story. Mark: Well, I think it\u2019s important to hear a little of my back story. It kind of helps to explain things. Keep in mind that the people at the company didn\u2019t really know much of the back story. They didn\u2019t know what to expect from someone who had my history. In any case, the history is I grew up poor. My dad wasn\u2019t around\u2026 His parents divorced when he was two years old. At some point in his childhood, his family relied on social welfare to survive. He taught himself computer programming in high school. BISNET was his first full-time job. He was 21 when he started. To his surprise, some big companies started to use the program he wrote.  Mark:\u2026We eventually got some big customers, like Ebay and Etrade. These are software companies and they are using our software to manage their online employee health benefits. So, that was kind of mind-blowing. So, it was kind of a mix of humble beginnings and being in a very unfamiliar situation for which I was not prepared. And also a situation that kind of blew up my ego a little bit. I thought \u2018well, I must be pretty good, if we are having so much success. And it\u2019s just me by myself, bla bla bla. But at the same time, I\u2019m think \u2018well, the software has all these problems. The website is kind of ugly. I\u2019m not really good at design\u2026 Anyway, the whole thing was just emotionally weird for me, not really negative or positive, just weird. It was all surreal to me. So, the kind of humor that I would engage in would be the stuff that, in retrospect, is really only funny to me, because I don\u2019t think it was very surreal to anybody else. I was the fish out of water there. But they were used to that environment. I ask him to give me an example of his jokes. Mark: My jokes would be about how surreal the whole thing was to me. So there was this one incident that really highlights that aspect. There was an investor meeting. They had a series of A fundings, series B and series C, whatever\u2026 So we had this meeting where the investors are meeting the employees of the company in this big conference room. And everybody\u2019s introducing themselves. And I said something along the lines of \u2018I am the original programmer. Almost all the code is written by me. So I guess that makes me the God of Bisnet!\u2019 Carol: And you actually threw your hands in the air? Mark: Something like that. I thought I was being funny. But there was this kind of silence in the room. And maybe the perception was that I actually thought of myself as the God of Bisnet? Maybe they thought of me as not being the humble nice guy that I thought I was. And I always just thought of myself as the nice guy, the nerd.\u201d Carol: So when you said \u2018I guess I\u2019m the God of Bisnet,\u2019 what was going on in your head? How did you feel when you said that? Mark: [pause][sigh] I don\u2019t know. There was some pride mixed in with all of it. It was pride plus also just the feeling of absurdity. So it was both of those things. I grew up in an environment that encouraged putting all your emotions on your sleeve at all times. Just be honest and always tell the truth. I kind of have faith in that as a way to get through the world, as way to interact with the world. Everything would work out in the end, if that\u2019s the way you live. Because it did in my house: I would do that and stuff would come up and we would talk about it. And stuff would get dealt with. Carol: So, for example, if that happened in your family, you would say \u2018Oh, look I\u2019m the God of this family!\u2019 Mark: [Jumping in] Everybody would laugh and go \u2018yeah, right!\u2019 They wouldn\u2019t be afraid to take me down a peg or whatever. Maybe everybody in that (conference) room thought if they laughed at me, my ego would be hurt. As far as I know, I\u2019m not really that averse to having my ego hurt, if it means I get a laugh. I\u2019m happy to give up my ego for a laugh. I was giving them the pitch, and nobody swung. Carol: So to you, it was a joke. Mark: Right. Carol: And you were waiting for a laugh. Mark: Right. Waiting for someone to take me down a peg. Gary [Narration: Gary was the founder of BISNET] could\u2019ve chimed in and said, \u2018Well, I don\u2019t know if we\u2019d be here without me, Mark?\u2019 Somebody could have said something. I just didn\u2019t want things to be all stodgy all the time, people holding their cards close to their chest. Just get it out there and have a discussion. If I say something absurd or stupid, just say \u2018wow, Mark, that was pretty stupid and absurd!\u2019 I\u2019ll be like, \u2018yup, sorry!\u2019 (laugh) You know. Just have more fun. So that\u2019s my perspective on it. Carol: And yet the investor meeting is supposed to be a serious thing. You are supposed to give a serious front and give them a good impression. Mark: Yeah. If I were any older, maybe I could\u2019ve figured that out. But at the time, I needed somebody to tell me that. I didn\u2019t know what an investor meeting was. I didn\u2019t know what any of this shit was. I didn\u2019t know what I was dealing with or who. I don\u2019t know who these people were. They were just white men in suits. When BISNET grew bigger, they hired ICs to interact with the customers. It gave Mark more time to work on the software. Yet, two unexpected problems sneaked in. One was that Mark used to get instant satisfaction from working directly with the clients. Now with the ICs being in between Mark and the clients, he felt a little removed and isolated. Mark: I guess I missed that customer interaction, the instant gratification, the instant reward: a customer calls me and we work out a new way or feature. Then I get on it. Then the next day, it\u2019s there. They (the customers) are like \u2018oh, thank you!\u201d I get that instant feedback. So (later) we removed that from the equation. And then the job turned into me sitting in front of a computer all day.\u201d The second problem was that most ICs had little to none programming background. When they encountered technical problems, they often had to ask Mark for help. Mark: They had access to me all day, every day. So, if I was working on something complicated, the only time I could actually work on it was at night. I have to work late, \u2018cause I felt like during the day there was always the chance that someone would come in and\u2026[pause] Carol: interrupt your work. Mark: Right. [pondering] I just don\u2019t know how to describe or generalize thousands of individual interactions. But just that feeling that you get when someone comes to you with a question. And it just indicates that they didn\u2019t write down the answer that you gave them last time. That feeling that you get is the feeling that kept coming up, that I didn\u2019t hide: my impatience. In a business setting, you go to war with the army you have not the army you want. You don\u2019t really know this person. You don\u2019t know what they are doing all day. Just \u2018cause you pass their desk a couple of times and see them looking at wedding photos of their friends, that doesn\u2019t mean that that\u2019s all they do all day. But at the time, I was getting a certain impression of these people that was negative. And also, I was socially awkward. Let\u2019s face it. I have anxiety talking to people. So that taints everything. Just the anxiety of trying to talk to people. But then on top of it, I think my face is expressive. So if somebody comes to me with what I feel is an inane question, then on my face you are going to see impatience and physical pain. You are going to see it all. [Chuckle] Besides asking technical questions, the ICs would also relay clients\u2019 requests to Mark about adding new features to the software.  Mark: There\u2019s feature requests. But then there should\u2019ve been a time rather than when I\u2019m in the middle of programming for them to come to me with a feature request. Things just weren\u2019t organized. So I kept getting interrupted. I\u2019m just there, programming away and getting interrupted constantly by this or that. I\u2019m definitely not an organized person. That\u2019s just wasn\u2019t mine [pause]\u2026 Maybe I had more power than I thought I did? Maybe if I had sat Gary down and said \u2018hey, we need to re-organize things here.\u2019 I wasn\u2019t a company builder. I was 21 when the whole thing started. All I knew was I had code to write and I had people interrupting me constantly with things that I thought could\u2019ve been set aside for later or brought up in email so I can get to it when I have time, or written down in a manual so it wasn\u2019t coming up all the time. In addition to the constant interruptions, Mark\u2019s work was getting increasingly challenging and stressful. Mark: We kind of got to a point where the thing was so big that new features ended up being a real pain in the ass. I had already picked the low-hanging fruit. There\u2019s a few new features. They are like \u2018oh man, just a nightmare.\u2019 Sometimes I would do it. Sometimes I\u2019m just like \u2018I don\u2019t think I can do that.\u2019 [chuckle] Or I\u2019d say \u2018maybe I can do that.\u2019 And it would just sit on the back burner forever. So there was the stress of that, of having some features that I\u2019ve promised just sitting on the backburner waiting for me to feel inspiration, enough inspiration to get it done\u2026 [sigh] Here\u2019s what it felt like for Mark to deal with both the interruptions and burnout at BISNET: Mark: As a programmer, you load up your entire, we call it, stack space. the short term memory has to put so much of the program into your head, so you know what the interlocking parts are and what things are doing. Just to be able to work on one line of code somewhere you need to know how it\u2019s gonna interact with all the other stuff. So I can spend an hour just looking through the code and try to figure out how something work and start in on how I\u2019m gonna add this feature or change how this thing works. And somebody would come in and destroy the last hour\u2019s worth of work by asking a question about something else. If that was an important question, something that I needed to pay attention to, like \u2018oh the website\u2019s down\u2019 or something like that, that\u2019s okay. I need to hit the reset button and go work on this other thing. That\u2019s fine. But if it\u2019s a question that I already answered\u2026 Carol: [interrupting] you think you already answered Mark: \u2026a question that I think I already answered, then this person just destroyed an hour\u2019s worth of my work to save themselves 10 minutes. That\u2019s what I always felt like. That\u2019s where the grimaces and the sighs came from... Maybe they are thinking that I hate them. But what\u2019s going through my head is I finally got my burnt-out self to load on this bullshit so that I could do this thing, and you came in and destroyed that. It\u2019s your job to know this in the first place. And could you please write this down and not ask me again? This was before Wikis. Maybe Wikis would have solved everything. I ask Mark whether he had ever suggested the idea of having an office hour to avoid the interruptions. Mark: I didn\u2019t know how to say, \u2018look, we need to organize things a little better. Eventually I did. I tried, \u2018okay, this is my office hours during the day. But by the time we did that I was so burnt out. I wasn\u2019t even getting that much done. I was kind of checked out at that point anyway. So it was too late by then. It was too late in the sense that Mark\u2019s reputation as an asshole was already established. ICs avoided interacting with him at all cost. [music break] The unpleasant situation lasted for about 3 years, even though Mark had no real awareness of what others thought of him. One day in Mark\u2019s 5th year at BISNET, an interesting twist happened. For Mark, it was a life-changing moment. That day, Mark approached Miles, the executive VP whom we heard earlier, to complain about something related to the ICs. Mark couldn\u2019t quite remember what it was. Mark: I was complaining to Miles about how the ICs were bothering me, something along those lines. I think that\u2019s when Miles shot back that if they took a vote, the ICs would vote to have me fired instead. That was the shocker. Yeah, that kind of blew my mind. It just never occurred to me that I was disliked. I want to be liked. I hate being disliked. So the idea that my self image of being a nice guy that people generally like\u2026 To have that idea destroyed like that was eye-opening and painful. It\u2019s like a revelation, like this thought path I\u2019d just never gone down for whatever reason. And then finally, I went down and realized \u2018oh well, I\u2019ve been ignoring this thing for so long. I ask Mark whether Miles told him why the ICs hated working with him. Mark: I don\u2019t know if he even told me why they didn\u2019t like me. I just thought about it and realized, \u2018oh yeah, I can see why. It just kind of reframed everything. So okay, they were kind of scared to come to me because I was such an asshole when they did. So in their mind, for them to even summon the internal strength to walk up to me and ask me what they knew I would think of it as a dumb question. But they needed the answer, and they couldn\u2019t see any other way. For them to do that was like them confronting the bully. Up to that point, I\u2019d only see the interaction as they were being lazy and not taking it onto themselves to create some kind of permanent record of all the questions that I had answered, so I wasn\u2019t answer the same things over and over again. In a later conversation, Mark reflects further, Mark: I don\u2019t like drama. I\u2019ve always been anti-drama. To find out that I\u2019ve  been causing drama, and that it was in my hands to decrease it. That was a revelation: \u201cOh these things are important.\u201d I can\u2019t just ignore the personal. There\u2019s no such thing as somehow freeing up the energy for the technical by ignoring the personal. It sounds good to a programmer who thinks of things as a zero-sum game: \u201cYeah, I can just focus on the technical and forget the personal. And I\u2019m freeing up the energy.\u201d But the reality is that by ignoring the personal, you are making things much less efficient than it could be and just causing more drama, wasting a lot  more energy than you could ever conserve by ignoring the personal. That was a big paradigm shift for me. Mark uses a lightening metaphor to describe how it felt like before and after the paradigm shift. Mark: It feels like a lightening. Over the years, the electrons were gathering in the clouds, building up and building up. Everything looks normal on the surface. All you see is a cloud. And there\u2019s the Earth. But then this one day, you realize how many electrons are sitting in the cloud. And it just bolts right back into the ground. And that\u2019s it. So yeah, that was kind of mind blowing. I just realize what an asshole I\u2019d been. And I regretted it. I had a lot of regret. It was just horrible. So yeah, I talked to my mom about it that night. She made the suggestion that I gave everybody a flower with an apology note. So I went and bought the flowers. One flower for each IC and a little note saying, \u201cI\u2019m sorry I\u2019ve been such an asshole\u2026\u201d Carol: [interjecting] So you put the word asshole in there? Mark: I think so. Yeah. So I got to work early and put one on each of their desks. And they all came to work and saw them. And there was like this moment\u2026 The details have faded. But there\u2019s something of\u2026 This may not be it, but the feeling of it is right: I think they all came in to where my desk was. I think they all came in together. I think they gave me a hug or something. Carol: Everybody? Mark: Yeah. I think everybody gave me a hug. There was reconciliation. Apologies and coming together. It just turned the whole thing around. Miles, the VP, has a similar recollection of Mark\u2019s flower gesture: he says that once Mark found out that others hated working with him, Miles: He took action and spoke very loudly. From what I can remember, people were truly touched by the fact that he was making the effort. Later in our conversation, Mark reflects on why the flower gesture made an impact, Mark: I didn\u2019t think the flower thing would work. But it did. The fact that it worked told me so much about human nature: the other person just wants to know that you care. [laugh] That\u2019s it. \u201cI just want to know that you care. Then we can work together. If you care about how I feel about you, okay now I\u2019ve got something to work with. I can tell you that what you did made me feel this way or that way. And I can trust that you\u2019ll make adjustments trying not to do it any more.\u201d Suddenly, people are your friend again, even after years of antagonism. Boom, \u201coh you actually care? Okay.\u201d It switches up. Maybe you weren\u2019t an asshole I thought you were. \u2018cause you know assholes don\u2019t care. That defines an asshole, right? If you prove to somebody that I\u2019m willing to admit to having been in the wrong, I\u2019m willing to let you win the battle, I\u2019m willing to give up some status in order to convey to you that I care about how you feel about me. That\u2019s what I think the flowers did. The flower incident was certainly an uplifting moment for both Mark and his coworkers. The former IC Letitia said that she felt Mark became more approachable and genuine afterwards. But warm and fuzzy feelings aside, I can\u2019t help but wonder whether a symbolic gesture like the flower incident would really resolve years of conflicts. And also, can people\u2019s behavior and habits be changed overnight? We\u2019ll find out in the next episode when Mark and his coworkers continue to tell the story. What\u2019s more, my conversation with Letitia took an unexpected turn in the next episode. Letitia: There were people that gave feedback to Mark by calling him an asshole to his face. Carol [in surprise]: Oh really? Was that before or after the flower incident? Letitia: Yes, before. Carol: So they actually told him, \u201cOh you are being an asshole here.\u201d But he didn\u2019t really respond. And he just continued his way? Letitia: Yeah. Wow, why doesn\u2019t Mark remember any of that?? I thought he never got any feedback about his asshole status until the flower incident? Have you ever wondered what kind of feedback may actually sink in or stick around in a workplace asshole\u2019s head? We\u2019ll explore that question next time we meet. Meanwhile, check out our website www.workstoriesproject.org. Maybe you have your own stories to share. Maybe you want to predict on how Mark\u2019s story may end. Feel free to leave any comments you want. You are also welcome to join me in a subReddit forum titled work stories project. And don\u2019t forget to subscribe to our show in your podcast app. That way, you\u2019ll be notified about new episodes automatically. All the details are listed on our website Workstoriesproject.org. Let me thank all the story contributors to this episode, Letitia, Miles, Bret, and my husband Mark. Without you, all of this would remain buried deep under the ocean of your experience. I\u2019m your host Carol Xu. And the music is by Mark. Okay, that\u2019s it for our show. See you next time! [music break] ","author_name":"Work Stories Project","author_url":"http:\/\/workstoriesproject.org\/","html":"