{"version":1,"type":"rich","provider_name":"Libsyn","provider_url":"https:\/\/www.libsyn.com","height":90,"width":600,"title":"An Unnecessary War, with Daniel Zoughbie","description":"Why are we still \u201ckicking the hornet\u2019s nest\u201d? The last time Mark Labberton interviewed Daniel Zoughbie (UC Berkeley\/UCSF) for his expertise on international diplomacy in the Middle East, there was not yet an Iran war. Regardless of your geographical distance, this war is imminently important as it escalates and impacts not just Iran but the entire Middle East and the entire world economy. \u201cWar is really supposed to be a last resort.\u201d Taking seriously both the significance and validity of Israel as a nation and the need for appropriate and just treatment of all Jews, Christians, and Muslims during a time of rising anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, this conversation comes at a volatile moment, pregnant with violence and chaos in American foreign policy. Starting the timeline at the 2018 US exit from the \u201cIran nuclear deal\u201d (the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action) Zoughbie discusses a variety of interconnected issues, including the role of Middle Eastern geography such as the Strait of Hormuz and the Bab el-Mandab (\u201cGate of Tears\u201d), the proliferation cascade a Saudi Arabian nuclear program could set off, and the difference between tactical brilliance and strategic vision. Together, they also consider hopes for improvement, looking at Gerald Ford\u2019s unpopular but effective ultimatum that forced Egypt and Israel to talk; the Olmert-Abbas negotiations that almost reached a two-state solution; the role of Christianity in politics; the danger of national pride; wisdom from antiquity in Herodotus, Croesus, and Cyrus the Great; and a definition of greatness that has nothing to do with force. Episode Highlights Regarding the term \u201can unnecessary war\u201d: \u201cI think the word \u2018unnecessary\u2019 is absolutely the appropriate term, and I might just add another term: unjust. War is really supposed to be a last resort.\u201d \u201cIran has discovered not only that they have this nuclear program, which is incredibly powerful, but they\u2019ve discovered that they have this power to shut off world\u2019s economy [through The Strait of Hormuz].\u201d \u201cExiting [the JCPOA\u2014Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action] was a really, really big blunder because we did not have anything else to fall back on. The Iranians pointed to this and said, \u2018Look, we can\u2019t trust your word.\u2019\u201d \u201cI feel like the current atmosphere in Washington is really about \u2018me, mine, and more.\u2019 And for us to really have a change in our foreign policy ... we really need to think beyond ourselves as a country.\u201d \u201cWe\u2019ll always try to turn every problem into a nail, right? And we\u2019ll use our hammer to deal with that problem. And that\u2019s exactly why we\u2019re in this mess in the first place.\u201d \u201cGreatness is not about testosterone shots. It\u2019s about being able to show mercy. It\u2019s about being able to see the humanity in others, even your enemy, and ultimately what I would call Herodotus\u2019s paradox, which is that the mightiest of the mighty turns an enemy into a friend.\u201d About Daniel Zoughbie Daniel E. Zoughbie is a complex-systems scientist, diplomatic historian, and expert on presidential decision-making. He is associate project scientist at the UCSF\/UCB Center for Global Health Delivery, Diplomacy, and Economics; principal investigator of Berkeley\u2019s Middle East and North Africa Diplomacy, Development, and Defense Initiative; and a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council\u2019s MENA Futures Lab. He wrote Kicking the Hornet\u2019s Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump and Indecision Points. He founded Microclinic International, whose model has reached refugee and low-income communities across four continents, and studied at Oxford as a Marshall and Weidenfeld Scholar. Helpful Links and Resources Kicking the Hornet\u2019s Nest, Zoughbie\u2019s 2025 book on twelve presidents and the Middle East https:\/\/www.simonandschuster.com\/books\/Kicking-the-Hornets-Nest\/Daniel-E-Zoughbie\/9781668085226 \u201cToxic Foreign Policy and Citizen Diplomacy,\u201d Zoughbie\u2019s first Conversing conversation: https:\/\/comment.org\/podcasts\/toxic-foreign-policy-and-citizen-diplomacy\/ \u201cThe Lesson Trump Can Take From Herodotus\u2019 Paradox\u201d https:\/\/www.theamericanconservative.com\/the-lesson-trump-can-take-from-herodotus-paradox\/ UN Security Council Resolution 2231, which endorsed the JCPOA https:\/\/main.un.org\/securitycouncil\/en\/content\/2231\/background \u201cWorld Oil Transit Chokepoints,\u201d the US Energy Information Administration on Hormuz and the Bab el-Mandab https:\/\/www.eia.gov\/international\/content\/analysis\/special_topics\/World_Oil_Transit_Chokepoints\/ Gerald R. Ford\u2019s 1977 Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary commencement address, quoted at length in this episode https:\/\/www.christianitytoday.com\/2006\/12\/gerald-r-ford-lessons-from-presidency\/ Herodotus, The Histories, Book 1, where Croesus consults the Oracle and Cyrus spares him https:\/\/www.perseus.tufts.edu\/hopper\/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book%3D1 American University of Beirut, Zoughbie\u2019s standing example of citizen diplomacy https:\/\/aub.edu.lb\/ Show Notes The 2018 exit from the Iran Nuclear Deal (the JCPOA, or Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action) as the origin point of the current war P5+1: US, UK, Russia, China, France, plus Germany What the deal never covered: missiles, proxies, regional behavior Nuclear non-proliferation In the wake of the US bombing of Iran: enrichment stockpiles, IAEA detections, inspectors no longer on the ground An unnecessary and unjust war How to work backward from the real goals of American national security Proliferation cascade risk: Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt Leverage the US still holds through China, Russia, India, and Pakistan The Saudi nuclear offer, walked back a day later over Israeli recognition Strait of Hormuz geography: 21 miles wide, shipping lanes two miles each The Red Sea, the Houthis, and the Bab el-Mandab (\u201dThe Gate of Tears\u201d) Israel\u2019s tactical brilliance and strategic blindness Mossad\u2019s mottos, drawn from Proverbs, and the danger of self-deception 1967 revisited: not a short war but a nuclear near-miss Gerald Ford as counterexample: the ultimatum that opened Egypt-Israel talks Gerald Ford\u2019s 1977 Gordon-Conwell address and his oath on the book of Proverbs Hubris: ancient and current Testosterone shots, lethality, and the inverse of humility Pastors and power in the Oval Office Reinhold Niebuhr, Karl Barth, and Christian nationalism Herodotus, Croesus, and Cyrus: mercy as the measure of greatness The path to Tehran runs through Jerusalem The Olmert-Abbas negotiations as a known formula Citizen diplomacy and the American University of Beirut What listeners can do, including welcoming Middle Eastern neighbors #Conversing #MarkLabberton #DanielZoughbie #IranWar #ForeignPolicy #StraitOfHormuz #NuclearProliferation #MiddleEast #Diplomacy #FaithAndPolitics Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary. ","author_name":"Conversing with Mark Labberton","author_url":"https:\/\/comment.org\/shows\/conversing\/","html":"