{"version":1,"type":"rich","provider_name":"Libsyn","provider_url":"https:\/\/www.libsyn.com","height":90,"width":600,"title":"309: How to Handle Tough Conversations Without Losing Your Cool with Gabe Karp","description":"Life isn\u2019t all smooth conversations and easy people. Sometimes it\u2019s messy, uncomfortable, and straight-up frustrating. <p> In this episode, Erin sits down with former trial lawyer turned entrepreneur and conflict expert Gabe Karp to talk about how to handle tough situations without spiraling, avoiding, or blowing things up. <p> Because here\u2019s the truth: conflict isn\u2019t the problem. How you handle it is. <p> Gabe shares practical strategies to help you stay grounded, take control, and walk away without regret\u2026 even when the other person is making it hard. <p> Here\u2019s what you\u2019ll hear: <p>  -  Why there are always \u201ctwo tokens\u201d in every situation and how to choose wisely <p> -The 5 traps that quietly sabotage your ability to handle conflict <p> -A simple shift that helps you stay calm when things start going sideways <p> -Gabe\u2019s least proud leadership moment and the lesson that stuck <p> -The subtle behavior that might be holding others back (and you don\u2019t even realize it) <p>   <p> <a href="https:\/\/www.gabekarp.com\/">Website: GabeKarp.com <\/a> <p> <p> <a href="www.linkedin.com\/in\/gabe-karp-1b772a1b ">LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com\/in\/gabe-karp-1b772a1b  <\/a> <p> <p> <a href="https:\/\/youtu.be\/ggOQg6uUV2M?si=nKviXwvHJkGgvLGk ">Check out Gabe\u2019s TED Talk, How To Thrive With Difficult People:  https:\/\/youtu.be\/ggOQg6uUV2M?si=nKviXwvHJkGgvLGk <\/a> <p> <p>If you\u2019d like quick tangible tips and practical corporate career advice to level up your authentic leadership, download the 10 simple \u201cplays\u201d to stop selling out and start standing out at <a href="https:\/\/bauthenticinc.mykajabi.com\/freebie">https:\/\/bauthenticinc.mykajabi.com\/freebie <\/a> <p> <p>To connect with Erin and\/or Nicole, email: hello@bauthenticinc.com <p> <br> <p><b>If you like jammin' with us on the podcast, b sure to join us for more fun and inspiration!<\/b><br><\/p> <br> <ul> <li><p> <a href="https:\/\/twitter.com\/bcausepodcast">Follow b Cause on Twitter (really it's mostly Nicole) <\/a> <p><\/li><li><p> <a href="https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/erin-hatzikostas\/">Follow Erin on LinkedIn <\/a>or <a href="https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/erinhatzikostas\/" >Instagram<\/a> <p><\/li><li><p> <a href="http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/bCAUSEPodcast">Join the b Cause Podcast Facebook Group<\/a> <p><\/li><li><p>  <a href="https:\/\/quiz.tryinteract.com\/#\/600ec8544ddf900016d517d1"> Take our simple, fun and insightful"What\u2019s your workplace superhero name?\u201dquiz<\/a><p><\/li><li>  <a href="https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/You-Do-ish-Authentic-Superpowers\/dp\/1736376535\/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=you+do+youish&qid=1634564333&sr=8-1">Unleash your Authentic Superpower with Erin\u2019s book,"You Do You (ish)" <\/a><p><\/li><li><p><a href="https:\/\/www.bauthenticinc.com\/our-2-cents">Check out our blog for more no-BS career advice<\/a> <p><\/li><li><p><a href="https:\/\/www.bauthenticinc.com\/authentic-programs">Work with Us <\/a><p><\/li><li><p><a href="https:\/\/www.bauthenticinc.com\/b-you-shop">Or just buy some fun, authentic, kick-ars merch here <\/a><p><\/li> <br> <p><em>DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsustainable for younger audiences.<p><\/em> <br> <p><b>Tweetable Comments<\/b><br><\/p> <li><p> "Everyone knows what "better" looks like. They just don't know where to start." <p><\/li> <li><p> "When you really screw something up for a client, that is an opportunity to make the relationship stronger and better." <p><\/li> <li><p> "Mistakes are inevitable and a real true test of character is how we react once we recognize we've made a mistake." <p><\/li> <li><p> "You cannot drive growth and innovation without conflict." <p><\/li> <li><p> "What do you get out of being mad?"     <h2>Episode Transcript<\/h2> <p><em>This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability.<\/em><\/p> <p>In this episode, Erin Hatzikostas talks with conflict expert Gabe Karp about how to handle difficult workplace conversations, give feedback without becoming the bully, manage conflict with bosses and clients, and use practical tools like the \u201ctwo tokens\u201d theory, the \u201cshopping list voice,\u201d and the penguin philosophy.<\/p> <h3>Why Conflict Is So Hard at Work<\/h3> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> I\u2019m really excited to talk to you today. I think we can never have too many episodes about tough conversations. Conflict is the word you use, and our audience is working in a very Game of Thrones-type environment \u2014 corporate America.<\/p> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> You are a conflict expert. Was there a moment when you realized this was the work you wanted to do?<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> There was. I spent ten years as a litigator, mostly in commercial litigation and legal malpractice. If you think a normal lawsuit is contentious, suing lawyers for screwing up is that on steroids.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> I learned a lot about anger and how it flows through a room. For all the wrong reasons, I loved it.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> Then I left private practice and joined a startup. We were growing fast, and whenever there were issues \u2014 a client problem, an internal mistake, anything \u2014 I wanted to jump in and fix it. But everyone around me was uncomfortable with conflict, and I didn\u2019t realize that at first.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> I realized we couldn\u2019t fix what needed fixing if everyone was tiptoeing around issues. I had to consciously find ways to help people feel comfortable having difficult conversations.<\/p> <h3>Can People Get Better at Conflict?<\/h3> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> Do you think people can transform? A lot of people listening may think, \u201cI just naturally run from conflict.\u201d<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> Absolutely. I think it\u2019s nurture, not nature. We all have the same fight-or-flight instinct. But the ability to pause that instinctive response in the moment is something people can learn.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> The thing I\u2019ve found most effective is helping people find the right entry point into a difficult conversation. One line I use all the time is, \u201cIf I were in your position, I\u2019d want someone to tell me this.\u201d<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> Once people have that one sentence to break the ice, all the things they need to say can come out in a productive, respectful way.<\/p> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> So one of the most important things is the entry point into the conversation.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> Exactly. Most people have a sense of what needs to happen. They just don\u2019t know how to begin.<\/p> <h3>When Your Boss Keeps Changing Priorities<\/h3> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> Let\u2019s take a common scenario. Someone\u2019s boss keeps changing priorities. One week it\u2019s one thing, the next week it\u2019s another. The employee is overwhelmed and hasn\u2019t said anything. How should they approach that conversation?<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> You want to bring awareness to the boss. It\u2019s like holding up a mirror and letting them see what their behavior looks like.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> In the moment, you might say, \u201cIt sounds like this is important, but two days ago you told me the thing I\u2019m working on now had the same level of urgency. If I drop this, it remains unfinished. If I move to this new thing and then two days from now we switch again, that becomes difficult for me because I don\u2019t know what\u2019s actually important.\u201d<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> You\u2019re not attacking them. You\u2019re helping them see the pattern. Most people don\u2019t want to be perceived as the person who creates fire after fire after fire.<\/p> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> I think one of the most important things you said is to address it in the moment. A lot of people wait for the next one-on-one, and by then they\u2019re nervous or the meeting gets delayed.<\/p> <h3>The Two Tokens Theory<\/h3> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> Let\u2019s talk about customer conflict. How do you handle a situation where you have to tell a client that something you promised isn\u2019t going to be delivered?<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> There\u2019s a concept I love called the choice between two tokens. In every customer service complaint, there are two tokens on the table: the \u201cit\u2019s not a big deal\u201d token and the \u201cthis is the end of the world\u201d token.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> Whoever picks up the first token forces the other side to pick up the only token that\u2019s left.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> If a customer has a serious complaint and you minimize it, they are forced into the \u201cend of the world\u201d position. But if you immediately take accountability and say, \u201cThis is unacceptable. We failed you. We\u2019re going to fix it,\u201d the customer often becomes the one to say, \u201cOkay, it\u2019s not that bad.\u201d<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> In business, there is almost no downside to taking accountability first, even if you don\u2019t know all the facts yet. If you later learn the other side was also at fault, you\u2019ll have more credibility because your default response was accountability.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> When you really screw something up for a client, that can actually become an opportunity to make the relationship stronger. Mistakes are inevitable. The real test is how you respond once you recognize the mistake.<\/p> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> I love that metaphor. I\u2019ve never heard it explained that way, but I\u2019ve seen that strategy work.<\/p> <h3>Why Conflict Drives Growth<\/h3> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> You say conflict can drive growth and innovation. Tell us more about that.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> You cannot drive growth and innovation without conflict. It\u2019s impossible.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> Companies where everyone is a yes person and no one raises their hand when there\u2019s a problem will kill innovation. The same is true for careers. People grow when they receive feedback, learn from mistakes, and get better.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> If someone is repeatedly making a mistake and you know exactly what they\u2019re doing wrong, but you withhold that information because you don\u2019t want them to feel uncomfortable, you\u2019re depriving them of the opportunity to become the best version of themselves.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> People often think avoiding feedback is kind. But sometimes it\u2019s actually cruel because you\u2019re withholding information they need in order to grow.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> You can say something like, \u201cIf I were in your position, I\u2019d want to be told this,\u201d or, \u201cI think you\u2019re being perceived in a way you don\u2019t want to be perceived.\u201d Then get specific.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> It\u2019s not enough to tell someone what they did wrong. You also need to give them something they can take away and use to improve.<\/p> <h3>Feedback as a Leadership Gift<\/h3> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> That reminds me of a boss who once gave me feedback after I ran a town hall. I thought I had crushed it, and he told me I said \u201cI\u201d a lot \u2014 \u201cI think,\u201d \u201cI want,\u201d \u201cmy vision.\u201d It stuck with me because he was right.<\/p> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> If he hadn\u2019t told me, he would have deprived me of becoming a better leader.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> That\u2019s huge. Whether or not he was your favorite boss, that was a real service he did for you.<\/p> <h3>Don\u2019t Get Mad at Penguins<\/h3> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> We have to talk about penguins. Your book is called <em>Don\u2019t Get Mad at Penguins<\/em>. Why?<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> Don\u2019t get mad at penguins because they can\u2019t fly.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> It\u2019s a lesson in acceptance. We need to accept people, limitations and all, and stop expecting them to do things they are not capable of doing.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> The hard part is that limitations are often hard to see. A penguin is a bird. It has wings and feathers. Everything about it suggests it should be able to fly. But it can\u2019t. Flight is literally beyond its ability.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> People often say, \u201cOf course this person is capable of behaving differently. They\u2019re smart. They can analyze other people\u2019s behavior.\u201d But that doesn\u2019t necessarily mean they can see or change their own behavior.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> If someone behaves the same way every single time, and you know there\u2019s a 100% chance they\u2019ll do it again, why keep getting mad? Sometimes you have to accept the limitation.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> The penguin analogy helps people separate themselves from anger. They start picturing the difficult person as a little penguin who can\u2019t fly, and it takes the hot air out of the situation.<\/p> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> I love that. Think of people as penguins.<\/p> <h3>The Five Conflict Traps<\/h3> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> You talk about five traps that turn conflict against businesses. What are they?<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> The five traps are the bully trap, the need-to-win trap, the liar trap, the avoidance trap, and the judgment trap.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> These show up in all human interaction, not just business. Things like anger, fear, ego, and judgment are not always bad. In healthy amounts, they can be useful. Anger can motivate you to fix something broken. Fear can protect you.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> But when those things move outside their healthy range, they become toxic.<\/p> <h3>The Bully Trap<\/h3> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> The bully trap is not about a playground bully who enjoys hurting people. It\u2019s a situation where someone, because of urgency, fear, or passion, behaves in a way that is perceived as bullying.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> If someone on my team makes a mistake and I yell at them because I\u2019m angry, I may think I\u2019m giving feedback, but I\u2019m not. I\u2019m just beating them up.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> If I want to understand why something happened and I start by yelling, they\u2019re just going to defend themselves. There won\u2019t be a genuine conversation.<\/p> <h3>The Need-to-Win Trap<\/h3> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> The need-to-win trap happens when your desire to win a small battle eclipses the reason you entered that battle in the first place.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> I experienced this as a litigator. I had a case where I found a smoking gun piece of evidence. I knew I could destroy the other side at trial, and I wanted that moment.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> A judge pulled me aside during a settlement conference and reminded me that my job wasn\u2019t to win for the sake of winning. My job was to get the best result for my client.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> I had become so focused on winning and punishing the other side that I almost lost sight of what was actually best for the client.<\/p> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> I think we can all relate to that. Maybe not in a trial, but definitely at work or in relationships.<\/p> <h3>The Shopping List Voice<\/h3> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> Let\u2019s talk about detoxing the bully trap. How do you do that?<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> I love using what I call the shopping list voice.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> Imagine someone says, \u201cHey Gabe, I\u2019m going to the store. Do you want me to pick anything up?\u201d And I say, \u201cYes, eggs, milk, frosting, and sprinkles.\u201d It\u2019s matter-of-fact. Neutral. Calm.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> Now take a workplace example. A client fires us because someone on my team sent deliverables with mistakes, the client had to redo the work, and they missed a deadline.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> I could explode and attack the person. Or I could say in a calm voice, \u201cI just got off the phone with the client. The deliverables had mistakes. They had to redo the work. They missed the deadline as a result. They said this wasn\u2019t the first time it happened, and they fired us. That was a $2 million account.\u201d<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> The substance is the same. But in the angry version, the person stops listening almost immediately. In the shopping list voice version, they may not like what I\u2019m saying, but they can actually hear it.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> If you\u2019re really mad, practice first. If you can\u2019t say it in the shopping list voice, you\u2019re not ready for the real conversation yet.<\/p> <h3>Accountability Plus Reaffirmation<\/h3> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> When people screw up, it\u2019s also an opportunity. Deliver the feedback in a shopping list voice, then reaffirm the person.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> You can say, \u201cThis is serious. But you are not horrible. You\u2019re smart and capable, and my hope is that this becomes a turning point in your career.\u201d<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> That combination helps you avoid being perceived as a bully. You tell the truth clearly, and you also remind the person that the mistake is not their identity.<\/p> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> So it\u2019s a one-two punch: use the shopping list voice, then reaffirm the person at the end.<\/p> <h3>Bucking the Norm by Having the Hard Conversation<\/h3> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> We always ask guests for a \u201cbuck that\u201d story \u2014 a time they went against conventional wisdom. What\u2019s yours?<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> I\u2019ll tell you about another mistake I made. When I first moved from litigation into a startup, I was still communicating like a litigator. Lawyers swear at each other all the time and no one is offended.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> One night, a sales person made a mistake, and I was dealing with the fallout. I sent him a brutal email with a subject line I should not have written. I copied another lawyer because I thought I was showing how I was managing the situation.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> The next morning, that lawyer told me, \u201cYou can\u2019t do that. These people aren\u2019t lawyers. They\u2019re real human beings with feelings.\u201d<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> That was a turning point. I realized the way I communicated in litigation wasn\u2019t effective in the real world.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> The norm I decided to buck was avoidance. So many people avoid difficult conversations, but I made a commitment not to carry anger or frustration around at work or in my personal life.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> If someone does something that feels disrespectful of me or my time, I assume first that they don\u2019t realize it and are not being intentionally mean-spirited. Then I make them aware of it respectfully and quickly.<\/p> <h3>Final Advice to Make Work Suck Less<\/h3> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> What is your final tip to make work suck less for our listeners?<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> Think about the things that bother you at work and draw a circle around yourself. Anyone who enters that circle has to adhere to the higher standard you hold yourself to.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> When people fall short of that standard, respectfully give them the gift of awareness.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> It will make your professional life easier because people will learn how to work with you. It will also help you build the skill of expressing difficult concepts in a way people can actually hear.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> If you were about to walk on stage and I saw spinach in your teeth, it would be mean not to tell you. Workplace mistakes are the professional version of having food in your teeth. Tell people. It\u2019s a gift.<\/p> <p><strong>Erin:<\/strong> I love it. This has been great, and conflict is such a hot topic with our audience. Thank you so much for spending this time with us.<\/p> <p><strong>Gabe:<\/strong> Thanks for having me.<\/p> ","author_name":"b Cause Work Doesn't Have to Suck","author_url":"http:\/\/bauthenticinc.libsyn.com\/website","html":"