{"version":1,"type":"rich","provider_name":"Libsyn","provider_url":"https:\/\/www.libsyn.com","height":90,"width":600,"title":"How to Build What You Believe with Shannon Deep and Kevan Lee","description":"Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I\u2019m joined by Kevan Lee and Shannon Deep, co-founders of Bonfire \u2013 a creative studio reimagining what it means to build brands, tell stories, and live meaningful lives. We talk about how Bonfire began as a \u201cTrojan horse\u201d \u2013 a branding agency on the surface, but really a vehicle for deeper questions: What does fulfilling work look like? How do we find meaning beyond our careers? And how can business become a space for honesty, connection, and growth? Kevan and Shannon share how their partnership formed, what it takes to build trust as co-founders, and how vulnerability and self-awareness fuel their collaboration. We explore their path from tech and theater to building Bonfire, hosting creative retreats, and helping founders tell more authentic stories. We also dive into how AI is changing storytelling, the myth of \u201cbroetry\u201d on LinkedIn, and why transparency is the future of marketing. If you\u2019re curious about what\u2019s next for creativity, leadership, and meaningful work, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, stay tuned for Responsive Conference 2026, where we\u2019ll be continuing the dialogue on human connection, business, and the evolving role of AI. Start (0:00) How Bonfire Started (14:25) Robin notes how transparent and intentional they\u2019ve been building their business and community Says Bonfire feels like a 21st-century agency \u2013 creative, human, and not traditional Invites them to describe what they\u2019re building and their vision for it Kevan\u2019s response: Admits he feels imposter syndrome around being called an \u201centrepreneur\u201d Laughs that it\u2019s technically true but still feels strange Describes Bonfire as partly a traditional branding agency They work with early-stage startups Help with brand strategy, positioning, messaging, and differentiation. But says the heart of their work is much deeper \u201cWe create spaces for people to explore what a fulfilling life looks like \u2013 one that includes work, but isn\u2019t defined by it.\u201d Their own careers inspired this \u2013 jobs that paid well but felt empty, or jobs that felt good but didn\u2019t pay the bills Bonfire became their way to build something more meaningful A space to have these conversations themselves And to invite others into it This includes community, retreats, and nontraditional formats Jokes that the agency side is a Trojan horse \u2013 a vehicle to fund the work they truly care about Shannon adds: They\u2019re agnostic about what Bonfire \u201cdoes\u201d Could be a branding agency, publishing house, even an ice cream shop \u201cMoney is just gas in the engine.\u201d The larger goal is creating spaces for people to explore their relationship to work Especially for those in transition, searching for meaning, or redefining success Robin reflects on their unusual path Notes most marketers who start agencies chase awards and fame But Shannon and Kevan built Bonfire around what they wished existed Recalls their past experiences Kevan\u2019s path from running a publication (later sold to Vox) to Buffer and then Oyster Shannon\u2019s shared time with him at Oyster Mentions their recent milestone \u2013 Bonfire\u2019s first live retreat in France 13 participants, including them Held in a rented castle For a two-year-old business, he calls it ambitious and impressive Asks: \u201cHow did it go? What did people get out of it?\u201d Shannon on the retreat Laughs that they\u2019re still processing what it was They had a vibe in mind \u2013 but not a fixed structure One participant described it as \u201ca wellness retreat for marketers\u201d Not wrong \u2013 but also not quite right Attendees came from tech and non-tech backgrounds The focus: exploring people\u2019s most meaningful relationship to work Who you are when you\u2019re not at your desk How to bring that awareness back to real life \u2014 beyond castles and catered meals People came at it from different angles Some felt misaligned with their work Others were looking for something new Everyone was at a crossroads in their career Kevan on the space they built The retreat encouraged radical honesty People shared things like: \u201cI have this job because I crave approval.\u201d \u201cI care about money as a status symbol.\u201d \u201cI hate what I do, but I don\u2019t know what else I\u2019d be good at.\u201d They didn\u2019t force vulnerability, but wanted to make it safe if people chose it They thought deeply about values \u2013 what needed to be true for that kind of trust Personally, Kevan says the experience shifted his identity From \u201cmarketer\u201d to something else \u2013 maybe \u201cproducer,\u201d maybe \u201ccreator\u201d The retreat made him realize how many paths are possible \u201cNow I just want to do more of this.\u201d Robin notes there are \u201cso many threads to pull on\u201d Brings up family business and partnerships Shares his own experience growing up in his dad\u2019s small business Talks about lessons from Robin\u2019s Cafe and the challenges of partnerships Says he\u2019s fascinated by co-founder dynamics \u2013 both powerful and tricky Asks how Shannon and Kevan\u2019s working relationship works What it was like at Oyster Why they decided to start Bonfire together And how it\u2019s evolved after the retreat Kevan on their beginnings He hired Shannon at Oyster \u2013 she was Editorial Director, he was SVP of Marketing Worked together for about a year and a half Knew early on that something clicked Shared values Similar worldview Trusted each other When Oyster ended, partnering up felt natural \u2013 \u201cLet\u2019s figure out what\u2019s next, together.\u201d Robin observes their groundedness Says they both seem stable and mature, which likely helps the partnership Jokes about his own chaos running Robin\u2019s Caf\u00e9 \u2013 late nights, leftover wine, cold quinoa Asks Shannon directly: \u201cDo you still follow Kevan\u2019s lead?\u201d Shannon\u2019s laughs and agrees they\u2019re both very regulated people But adds that it comes from learned coping mechanisms Says they\u2019ve both developed pro-social ways to handle stress People-pleasing Overachievement Perfectionism Intellectualizing feelings instead of expressing them \u201cThose are coping mechanisms too,\u201d she notes, \u201cbut at least they keep us calm when we talk.\u201d Building Trust and Partnership (14:54\u201323:15) Shannon says both she and Kevan have done deep personal work. Therapy, reflection, and self-inquiry are part of their toolkit. That helps them handle a relationship that\u2019s both intimate and challenging. They know their own baggage. They try not to take the other person\u2019s reactions personally. It doesn\u2019t always work\u2014but they trust they\u2019ll work through conflict. When they started Bonfire: They agreed the business world is unpredictable. So they made a pinky swear: Friends first, business second. The friendship is the real priority. When conflict comes up, they ask: \u201cIs this really life or death\u2014or are we just forgetting what matters?\u201d Shannon goes back to the question and clarifies  Says they lead in different ways. Each has their \u201czone of genius.\u201d They depend on each other\u2019s strengths. It\u2019s not leader and follower \u2013 it\u2019s mutual reliance. Shannon explains: Kevan\u2019s great at momentum: He moves things forward and ships projects fast. Shannon tends to be more perfectionist: Wants things to be fully formed before releasing. Kevan adds they talk often about \u201crally and rest.\u201d Kevan rallies, he thrives on pressure and urgency. Shannon rests, she values slowing down and reflection. Together, that creates a healthy rhythm.  Robin notes lingering habits Wonders if any \u201changovers\u201d from their Oyster days remain. Kevan reflects  At first, he hesitated to show weakness. Coming from a manager role, vulnerability felt risky. Shannon quickly saw through it. He realized openness was essential, not optional. Says their friendship and business both rely on honesty. Robin agrees and says he wouldn\u2019t discourage co-founders\u2014it\u2019s just a big decision. Like choosing a spouse, it shapes your life for years. Notes he\u2019s never met with one of them without the other. \u201cThat says something,\u201d he adds. Their partnership clearly works\u2014even if it takes twice the time. Rethinking Marketing (23:19) Kevan\u2019s light moment: Asks if Robin\u2019s comment about their teamwork was feedback for them. Robin\u2019s observation  Notes how in sync Shannon and Kevan are. Emails one, gets a reply CC\u2019d with the other. Says the tempo of Bonfire feels like their collaboration itself. Wonders what that rhythm feels like internally. Kevan\u2019s response  Says it\u2019s partly intentional, partly habit. They genuinely enjoy working together. Adds they don\u2019t chase traditional agency milestones. No interest in Ad Age lists or Cannes awards. Their goal: have fun and make meaningful work. Robin pivots to the state of marketing (24:04) Mentions the shift from Madison Avenue\u2019s glory days to today\u2019s tech-driven world. Refers to Mad Men and the \u201cgrowth at all costs\u201d startup era. Notes how AI and tech are changing how people see their role in work and life. Kevan\u2019s background  Came from startups, not agencies. Learned through doing, not an MBA. Immersed in books like Hypergrowth and Traction. Took Reforge courses\u2014knows the mechanics of scaling. Before that, worked as a journalist. Gained curiosity and calm under pressure, but also urgency. Admits startup life taught him both good and bad habits. Robin notes  Neither lives the Madison Avenue life. Kevan\u2019s in Boise. Shannon\u2019s in France. Shannon\u2019s background Started in theater \u2013 behind the scenes as a dramaturg and producer. Learned how to shape emotion and tell stories. Transitioned into brand strategy in New York. Worked at a top agency, Siegel+Gale. Helped global B2B and B2C clients define mission, values, and design. Competed with big names like Interbrand and Pentagram. Later moved in-house at tech startups. Saw how B2B marketing often tries to \u201cact cool\u201d like B2C. Learned to translate creative ideas into language that convinces CFOs. Says her role often meant selling authentic storytelling to risk-averse execs. Admits she joined marketing out of necessity. \u201cI was 27, broke in New York, and needed a parking spot for my storytelling skills.\u201d Robin connects the dots  Notes how Silicon Valley\u2019s \u201cgrowth\u201d culture mirrors old ad-world burnout. Growth at all costs. Not much room for creative autonomy. Adds most big agencies are now owned by holding companies. The original Madison Avenue independence is nearly gone. Robin\u2019s reflection  Mentions how AI-generated content is changing video and storytelling. Grateful his clients still value human connection. Asks how Bonfire helps brands tell authentic stories now that the old model is fading. Kevan\u2019s take  Says people now care less about \u201cmoments\u201d and more about audiences. It\u2019s not about one viral hit\u2014it\u2019s about building consistency. Brands need to stand for something, and keep showing up. People want that outcome, even if they don\u2019t want the hard work behind it. Shannon adds Notes rising skepticism among audiences. Most content people see isn\u2019t from who they follow, it\u2019s ads and algorithms. Consumers are subconsciously filtering out the noise. Says that\u2019s why human storytelling matters more than ever. People crave knowing a real person is behind the message. AI can mimic tone but not authenticity. Adds it\u2019s hard to convince some clients of that. Authentic work isn\u2019t fast or easily measured. It requires belief in the process and a value system to match. That\u2019s tough when your client\u2019s investors only want quick returns. Robin agrees  \u201cLook at people\u2019s incentives and I\u2019ll tell you who they are.\u201d Shannon continues Wonders where their responsibility ends. Should they convince people of their values? Or just do the work and let the right clients come? Kevan says they\u2019ve found a sweet spot with current clients. Mostly bootstrapped founders. Work with them long-term instead of one-off projects. Says that\u2019s the recipe that fits Bonfire\u2019s values and actually works. The Quarter Analogy (35:36) Robin quotes BJ Fogg: \u201cDon\u2019t try to persuade people of your worldview. Look for people who already want what you can teach, and just show them how.\u201d He compares arguing with people who don\u2019t align to \u201can acrobat arguing with gravity \u2013 gravity will win 100% of the time.\u201d The key: harness momentum instead of fighting resistance. Even a small, aligned audience is better than chasing everyone. Kevan shares Bonfire\u2019s failed experiment with outbound sales: They tried reaching out to recently funded AI companies. \u201cIt got us nowhere,\u201d he admits. That experience reminded him how much old startup habits \u2013 growth at all costs, scale fast \u2013 still shape thinking. \u201cI thought success meant getting as big as possible, as fast as possible. That meant doing outbound, even if it felt inauthentic.\u201d But that mindset just added pressure. Realizing there were other ways to grow \u2013 slower, more intentional \u2013 was a relief. Now they\u2019ve stopped outbound entirely. Focused instead on aligned clients who find them naturally. Robin connects it to a MrBeast quote. \u201cIf I\u2019m not ashamed of the video I put out last week, I\u2019m not growing fast enough.\u201d He says he doesn\u2019t love the \u201cshame\u201d part but relates to the evolution mindset \u2013 Looking back at work from six months ago and thinking, I\u2019d do that differently now. Growth as a visible, measurable journey. Robin shifts to storytelling frameworks: Mentions Kevan and Shannon\u2019s analogies about storytelling and asks about \u201cthe quarter analogy.\u201d Kevan explains the \u201cquarter\u201d story: A professor holds up two quarters: \u201cSell me the one on the right.\u201d No one can \u2013 until someone says, \u201cI\u2019ll dip it in Marilyn Monroe\u2019s purse.\u201d That coin now has emotional and cultural value. Marketing can be the same \u2013 alchemy that turns something ordinary into something meaningful. Robin builds on that: You can tell stories about a coin\u2019s history \u2013 \u201cLincoln touched it,\u201d etc. But Kevan\u2019s version is different: adding new meaning in the present. \u201cHow do you imbue something with value now that makes it matter later?\u201d Shannon\u2019s take: It\u2019s about values and belonging. \u201cEvery story implicitly says: believe this.\u201d That belief also says: we don\u2019t believe that \u2013 defining who\u2019s in your tribe. Humans crave that \u2013 community, validation, connection. That belonging is intangible but real. \u201cTry selling that to a CFO who just wants ROI. Impossible \u2014 but it\u2019s real.\u201d Kevan adds: Values are one piece \u2013 authenticity is another. Some brands already have a genuine story; others want to create one. \u201cWe get asked to dip AI companies into Marilyn Monroe\u2019s purse,\u201d he jokes. The real work is uncovering what\u2019s true or helping brands rediscover it. The challenge: telling that story consistently and believably. Robin mentions Shannon\u2019s storytelling framework of three parts \u2013 Purpose \u2192 Story frameworks \u2192 Touch points. Shannon breaks it down: Clients usually come in with half-baked \u201cmission\u201d or \u201cvision\u201d statements. She uses Ogilvy\u2019s \u201cBig Ideal\u201d model: Combine a cultural tension (what\u2019s happening in the world) with your brand\u2019s best self. Then fill in the blank: \u201cWe believe the world would be a better place if\u2026\u201d That single sentence surfaces a company\u2019s \u201cwhy us\u201d and \u201cwhy now.\u201d It\u2019s dramaturgy, really \u2014 same question as in theater: \u201cWhy this play now?\u201d \u201cWhy us?\u201d Bonfire\u2019s own version (in progress): \u201cWe believe the world would be a better place if people and brands had more room to explore their creativity.\u201d Kevan adds: it\u2019s evolving, like them. Robin relates it back to his own story: After selling Robin\u2019s Caf\u00e9, he started Zander Media to tell human stories. He wanted to document real connections \u2014 \u201cthe barista-customer relationships, the neighborhood changing.\u201d That became his north star: storytelling as a tool for change and human connection. \u201cI don\u2019t care about video,\u201d he says. \u201cI care about storytelling, helping people become more of who they want to be.\u201d Kevan closes the loop: A good purpose statement is expansive. It can hold video, podcasts, even a publishing house. \u201cMaybe tomorrow it\u2019s something else. That\u2019s the beauty \u2014 it allows room to grow.\u201d Against the Broetry (49:01) Kevan reflects on transparency and values at Bonfire He and Robin came from Buffer, a company known for radical transparency \u2014 posting salaries, growth numbers, everything. Says that while Bonfire isn\u2019t as extreme about it, the spirit is the same. \u201cIt just comes naturally to invite people in.\u201d Their openness isn\u2019t a tactic \u2013 it\u2019s aligned with their values and mission. They want to create space for people to explore \u2013 new ideas, new ways of working, more fulfilling lives. Sharing their journey publicly felt like the obvious, authentic thing to do. \u201cIt wasn\u2019t even a conversation \u2013 just who we are.\u201d Shannon jumps in with a critique of business culture online Says there\u2019s so much terrible advice about \u201chow to build a business.\u201d Compliments Robin for cutting through the noise \u2013 being honest through Snafu and his newsletter. \u201cYou\u2019re trying to be real about what selling feels like and what it says about you.\u201d Calls out the \u201crise and grind\u201d nonsense dominating LinkedIn: \u201cWake up at 4 a.m., protein shake at 4:10, three-hour workout\u2026\u201d Robin laughs \u2013 \u201cI\u2019ll take the three-hour workout, but I\u2019ll pass on the protein shake.\u201d Shannon and Kevan call it \u201cbroetry\u201d The overblown, performative business storytelling on social media. \u201cI went on my honeymoon and here\u2019s what I learned about B2B sales.\u201d Their goal with building in public is the opposite: To admit mistakes. To share pivots and moments of doubt. To remind people that everyone is figuring it out. \u201cBut the system rewards the opposite \u2013 gatekeeping, pretending, keeping up the facade.\u201d Shannon says she has \u201cno patience for it.\u201d She traces that belief back to a story from college Producer Paula Wagner once told her class: \u201cHere\u2019s the secret: nobody knows anything.\u201d That line stuck with her. Gave her permission to question authority. To show up confidently even when others pretend to know more. After years of watching powerful men \u201cfail upward,\u201d she realized: \u201cThe emperor has no clothes.\u201d So she might as well take up space too. Transparency, for her, is a form of connection and courage \u2013 \u201cWhen people raise their eyes from their desks and actually meet each other, that\u2019s power.\u201d Robin thanks Shannon for the kind words about Snafu. Says their work naturally attracts people who want that kind of realness. Then pivots to a closing question: \u201cIf you had one piece of advice for founders \u2013 about storytelling or business building \u2013 what would it be?\u201d Kevan\u2019s advice: \u201cLook beyond what\u2019s around you.\u201d Inspiration doesn\u2019t have to come from your industry. Learn from other fields, other stories, other worlds. It builds curiosity, empathy, and creativity. Robin sums it up: \u201cGet out of your silos.\u201d Shannon\u2019s advice: \u201cMake the thing you actually want to see.\u201d Too many founders copy what\u2019s trendy or \u201csmart.\u201d Ask instead: What would I genuinely love to consume? Remember your audience is human, like you. And remember, building a business is a privilege. You get to create a small world that reflects your values. You get to hire people, pay them, shape a culture. \u201cThat\u2019s so cool, and it should make you feel powerful.\u201d With that power comes responsibility. \u201cEveryone says it\u2019s about making the most money. But what if the goal was to make the coolest world possible, for as many people as possible?\u201d Where to find Kevan and Shannon (57:16) Points listeners to aroundthebonfire.com\/experiences. That\u2019s where they host their retreats. Next one is April 2026. \u201cWe\u2019d love to see you there.\u201d   Companies\/Organizations Bonfire Buffer Oyster Vox Zander Media Siegel+Gale Interbrand Pentagram Reforge Robin\u2019s Caf\u00e9 Books \/ Frameworks \/ Theories Traction BJ Fogg\u2019s behavioral model Ogilvy\u2019s \u201cBig Ideal\u201d Purpose \u2192 Story Frameworks \u2192 Touch Point People Paula Wagner BJ Fogg MrBeast (Jimmy Donaldson) David Ogilvy Newsletters Snafu Kevan\u2019s previous publication   ","author_name":"Snafu w\/ Robin Zander","author_url":"http:\/\/www.robinpzander.com\/","html":"