{"version":1,"type":"rich","provider_name":"Libsyn","provider_url":"https:\/\/www.libsyn.com","height":90,"width":600,"title":"The Art of Telling Stories with Bobby Podesta","description":"Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I\u2019m talking with Bobby Podesta, longtime Pixar animator and storyteller. We dig into why storytelling and art matter, and why finding your own voice is more important than copying anyone else. Bobby opens up about his journey as an artist, the imposter syndrome he\u2019s faced, and how he learned to create art in a style that\u2019s truly his. We talk about how he turned a written novel into a graphic novel, translating dialogue and descriptions into illustrations along the way. He shares lessons from his college design teacher about noticing the art all around us\u2014not just in museums or galleries. We also explore how design and storytelling balance function and emotion, in ways you might not even realize in everyday life. Bobby\u2019s story shows that creativity isn\u2019t about perfection \u2013 it\u2019s about showing up and being authentic. He gives a fresh perspective on how storytelling shapes the way we see the world and connect with others. This episode is full of insights for anyone who cares about art, design, and telling stories that matter. 00:00 Start 03:13 The Importance of Human Connection in Storytelling Bobby on storytelling Background: 30 years in film, always thinking about story structure. Drama is about \u201cwhat you\u2019re both keeping back and what you\u2019re waiting to surprise your audience with.\u201d Steve Jobs anecdote Jobs builds suspense with \u201cone more thing.\u201d On stage, he asks: \u201cHas anyone ever wondered what this small pocket is for?\u201d (the tiny jeans pocket). Instead of something expected like a coin, he pulls out \u201cthe world\u2019s smallest iPod and people flip out.\u201d Why it works: audience knows the pocket\u2019s size \u2192 no need to explain iPod\u2019s dimensions. Structure: setup \u2192 familiar norm \u2192 question \u2192 twist \u2192 payoff. Bobby\u2019s takeaway: \u201cThat\u2019s really good storytelling, man. It\u2019s really good storytelling.\u201d \u201cPeople call him a salesperson. Like he\u2019s a great salesman. He\u2019s a great storyteller. If you can tell a good story, you\u2019re pulling people in. That\u2019s the key.\u201d Robin on storytelling & AI His work is making commercials and mini-docs for startups. Says video itself doesn\u2019t matter as much as impact: \u201cWhat I care about is changing human behavior and changing human emotion.\u201d Believes the value of human storytelling is timeless: \u201cThe value of sitting at Homer\u2019s feet and listening to him recite the Iliad is never going to go away.\u201d Bobby on storytelling & art Storytelling = fundamental way to convey and connect. Sees it like art: \u201cArt is a way to express your opinion and how you process the world around you in a manner that hopefully other people can experience and relate to.\u201d Calls art his \u201coldest friend, who I\u2019ve probably treated the worst\u2026 neglected, starved, and then expect it to show up and perform.\u201d Believes everyone can create: \u201cArt is not a zero-sum game\u2026 art is ultimately subjective because art is an opinion about how you see the world.\u201d Goal of art\/storytelling: help others \u201cfind some relationship to the world around them through it.\u201d 06:01 Art as a Form of Expression Robin\u2019s setup Grew up between an artist mother and entrepreneur father \u2013 \u201cperfect intersection\u201d of art + business. Distinguishes museum art (\u201cold, on walls\u201d) from art that\u2019s \u201caround us all the time.\u201d Points out modern communicators (Musk, Trump) as powerful storytellers\/branders \u2013 even if you disagree with the content, \u201cthat is great art in the form of good communication.\u201d Asks: why do we separate \u201chigh\u201d art (Iliad, museums) from everyday, cultural storytelling (Pixar, branding)? Art is everywhere Bobby uses the car-buying analogy to explain awareness: \u201cYou\u2019re looking for a midsize pickup and suddenly you see them everywhere. They didn\u2019t just appear. You\u2019re just paying attention.\u201d Art works the same way \u2013 once you start noticing, you realize it\u2019s all around you. Lesson from a design teacher: \u201cIf it wasn\u2019t dug up or grown, it\u2019s designed.\u201d Everything man-made carries intention \u2013 and therefore, art. Pushes back on the museum-only view of art: \u201cSaying art is only in museums is like saying there are only cars at dealerships. There are cars everywhere. There\u2019s art everywhere.\u201d Examples of art woven into daily life: Clothing, headphones, glasses Desks, chairs, pottery, textiles Buildings, skylines, sidewalk prints Freeway dividers, lamps Even tools: \u201cGo get a hammer. The handle\u2019s probably painted a color. It may be a penny\u2019s worth of art, but it\u2019s art, man.\u201d Definition of art: \u201cAll these things are working with that balance between functionality and making you feel something.\u201d Even branding choices \u2013 a color, a shape \u2013 are designed to evoke feeling. Perspective shift: Once you adjust your lens, \u201cthere\u2019s a lot of art out there. It\u2019s really, really amazing.\u201d 12:04 The Relationship Between Artist and Art Bobby compares practice to a relationship: \u201cIt\u2019s like the people that love you the most, sometimes you treat the worst.\u201d Practice is like a loyal friend or character always waiting: Wants to be fed, but often ignored. Always ready to show up again. \u201cIt\u2019s like that little character that shows up and is always there to help you out.\u201d Robin asks if practice is a character on his shoulder. Bobby: \u201cIt probably is\u2026 but I love it. If there\u2019s a napkin, I\u2019ll doodle.\u201d Art as a shared childhood language: Everyone starts out drawing: \u201cHave you ever met an adult who didn\u2019t draw as a kid? Everyone says yes.\u201d Drawing is how children interpret the world. Family encouragement made \u201cthe artist\u201d part of his identity. Becoming a writer: Took a UC Berkeley Extension class called \u201cFinishing the Novel.\u201d Professor\u2019s advice: \u201cYou\u2019re all taking classes. None of you are professionals. Go form a writers\u2019 group.\u201d Writers\u2019 group provided accountability \u2192 led to a first draft. Draft \u2192 literary agent \u2192 graphic novel \u2192 published book. \u201cFlash forward all these years later and I have a book that comes out\u2026 I guess I\u2019m an author.\u201d Lessons on growth and identity: Identity comes from practice and persistence, not instant recognition. Progress isn\u2019t linear: \u201cThe road is not a straight line.\u201d Common trap: believing \u201cI should have been there already.\u201d Bobby reframes time: \u201cYou can often have what you want, or you can have something when you want it. But you can rarely have what you want when you want it.\u201d Letting go of rigid timelines gives a better chance of arriving. 18:01 The Process of Creating a Graphic Novel Robin asks why this story, why now, and why as a debut novel. Bobby admits he had played with different story ideas before. Thought to himself: \u201cIf I only have one chance to do this, what story do I want to tell?\u201d Origin spark: a daydream while driving. \u201cWhat if an animal just jumped out in front of me?\u201d What if it leapt into the air and flew away? \u201cWhat if that animal was a reindeer?\u201d Question: what would a reindeer be doing here? That \u201cwhat if\u201d became the seed of the story. Bobby folded parts of himself into the idea. Loves holiday stories and movies \u2192 wanted to write one. Describes storytelling as crafting from a \u201cpantry of experiences.\u201d Not autobiography or documentary, but infused with pieces of his life. Details of the novel: Protagonist is an 11-year-old girl in 1955 Colorado. Bobby: \u201cI was neither alive in 1955, nor have I ever been an 11-year-old girl, nor have I found a flying reindeer \u2014 spoiler alert.\u201d Still, fragments of his own experiences and emotions shape the narrative. Goal as an author: To blend reality with imagination. To create something unique, fresh, and able to stand on its own. 20:58 Visual Storytelling vs. Written Storytelling Robin asks about storytelling: what\u2019s similar between Steve Jobs\u2019 two-minute iPod reveal and a 350-page graphic novel? Bobby: scale is different, but fundamentals are the same. Both are about introducing an idea, building drama, and pulling the audience in. Events and books both follow arcs: setup \u2192 build \u2192 climax \u2192 resolution. \u201cHe doesn\u2019t start the event with that, he ends the event with that. That\u2019s the climax.\u201d Storytelling has shape across mediums: Characters introduced \u2192 audience grows to care \u2192 surprises and turns \u2192 payoffs. Example: Steve Jobs\u2019 coin pocket reveal \u2192 set up, then payoff. In a book, the payoff may come 100 pages later instead of 30 seconds. Analogy: whether you play 30 seconds of a song or an hour-long concert, you\u2019re still using the same fundamentals of music. Robin shifts to Bobby\u2019s background as a visual storyteller. As an animator of 30 years, Bobby is comfortable with visual stories, while Robin is more comfortable with written ones. Robin compares Bobby\u2019s graphic novel to The Bone Compendium (which he revisits often) and contrasts with Heinlein novels he might attempt. Robin: making comics doesn\u2019t have to be like \u201cmy mother\u2019s artwork she slaved over for years.\u201d It can be like newspaper comics compiled into story. Asks Bobby for advice on where to begin if he wanted to try sketching a visual story. Bobby\u2019s advice: Many people don\u2019t think visual storytelling is possible for them. Shares personal story: On his first post-college date with his wife (now 25 years married), he said he wanted to write a book. It took him 25 years to actually write one. Never thought of doing a graphic novel because his drawing style didn\u2019t look like Marvel or X-Men. Even as a professional artist, felt imposter syndrome Realization: it\u2019s not about imitating Spider-Man \u2014 it\u2019s about drawing in your own style. Art is your opinion expressed visually. Stick figures can work if they serve the story. Doesn\u2019t have to be polished airbrushed paintings. How his graphic novel came about: Originally wrote the story as a regular novel. Sent to publishers with just a few illustrations. All said no \u2014 except one, who said: \u201cI love the illustrations. Would you consider making this a graphic novel?\u201d Bobby: \u201cAll right.\u201d Treated it as an invitation. Decided to draw in his own style. Practical process: Took all the dialogue he had already written. Turned descriptions into drawings. Book was already written in close third person, without inner thoughts \u2192 made translation easier. First pass: dialogue in speech bubbles, description drawn. Realized: \u201cI guess this works.\u201d Takeaway: You don\u2019t have to start by drawing an entire book from scratch. You can begin with writing, then translate description into visuals.   28:10 Resilience in the Face of Rejection Robin points out the sheer amount of work Bobby went through: writing a book, getting rejected repeatedly, reinventing it with illustrations, then turning it into a graphic novel only to be rejected again. Robin: \u201cIt\u2019s almost the literal definition of courage\u2026 getting back up and trying again.\u201d Notes that outsiders might think: \u201c30-year Pixar animator, easy for you.\u201d But the reality was rejection after rejection. Asks: how do you come back? What is your relationship with practice that allows you to face no 50 times and keep going? Bobby on optimism and imagination: \u201cI\u2019m lucky that I happen to be what myself and other people probably call an optimistic person.\u201d Describes himself as \u201can optimist with a vivid imagination\u201d \u2192 always assuming, \u201cYeah, we\u2019ll figure this out.\u201d Loves being middle-aged because experience gives perspective: you\u2019ve seen enough to know you can recover. The arc of a career\/life: Beginning stage: fearless. \u201cI can do anything because I cannot die.\u201d Willing to leap into anything: start a company, go broke, jump off a cliff \u2192 \u201cWe\u2019ll figure it out.\u201d Middle stage: awareness of consequences. Relationships, responsibilities, failures and successes \u2192 \u201cI don\u2019t know if I should do anything.\u201d Weight of awareness can freeze you. Later stage: resilience. \u201cI\u2019m still here, I figured it out.\u201d Confidence comes not from avoiding mistakes but from knowing: \u201cI can recover from anything.\u201d Personal examples: Bobby\u2019s two kids are both in college. He reflects on their application process: multiple schools, multiple options. His own experience was the opposite: Applied to only one school (CalArts). Barely got in. Supported by his single mother, who let him pursue art school. That early challenge taught him persistence and how to \u201cfigure it out.\u201d The practice of persistence: Life and career filled with moments of trial and error. \u201cThat didn\u2019t work. Okay, maybe this. Well, that didn\u2019t work. Maybe this.\u201d Sometimes progress feels like moving backwards before going forward again. Analogy: like a Roomba. Hits an obstacle \u2192 bounces, changes direction, keeps moving. \u201cI don\u2019t know that equating myself to a robot vacuum is the best thing, but it eventually gets the whole job done.\u201d 33:33 Storytelling Frameworks and Structures Bobby on classical story structure in his book: Book follows a traditional arc: opening, inciting incident (<10% of book), midpoint with key revelations, low point (~2\/3\u20133\/4 in), and climactic resolution. Includes a twist based on early-foreshadowed elements: \u201cThink you have a solution and then have a hard turn\u2026 different solution planted 100 pages earlier.\u201d Early readers said it felt cinematic \u2192 Bobby wrote a movie as a book. References classic movie structures repeatedly during drafting, checking chapter progression, hooks, resolutions, and cliffhangers: \u201cDo I end this chapter with a feeling of resolution or with a question\u2026 do I want you to turn the page?\u201d Notes that creating the book strengthened his skills at Pixar and vice versa: \u201cThey have a symbiotic relationship.\u201d Robin asks about attention to structure: Bobby used a mix of planning and improvisation (\u201cplanners vs. pantsers\u201d). Laid out large story \u201ctentpoles\u201d first, then wrote chapter by chapter without immediate rewrites. After finishing, he reviewed for surprises, alignment with tentpoles, and adjustments \u2192 iterative back-and-forth process. Bobby on why people don\u2019t create: Humans face fatigue, distraction, and constant small friction points: \u201cIt\u2019s like mini marshmallow tests all the time\u2026 the barriers of resistance to start can seem so overwhelming in the moment.\u201d The promise of completion feels distant and foggy \u2192 can prevent starting. Practice builds momentum: \u201cIt\u2019s momentum\u2026 sometimes it\u2019s having someone to be your advocate\u2026 sometimes it\u2019s accountability.\u201d Big projects (books, movies) require an internal well of energy: \u201cYou can\u2019t count on someone else to always be there to say, \u2018Keep going.\u2019 You have to push yourself daily.\u201d Daily discipline = mental exercise: getting out of bed, starting small tasks \u2192 builds resilience. On avoiding writer\u2019s block: Robin: \u201cWriter\u2019s block is trying to edit while in the process of creation\u2026 you can\u2019t do both simultaneously.\u201d Bobby: Agrees, emphasizes creation first, editing later. Early experience with comic strips in high school: studied Charles Schulz\u2019s process, learned professionals set deadlines \u2192 no excuses for \u201cwriter\u2019s block.\u201d On practical daily routine and momentum: Bobby wrote his book for ~1 hour a day while managing family, work, and marriage. Morning routine: 5\u20135:30 a.m. start, kettle and coffee prepped the night before \u2192 eliminates friction to starting work. Hardest step: moving from bed to floor \u2192 must commit, no complaining. Momentum principle: start creating first, quality comes later. \u201cBy the time I\u2019ve sat down and portioned my coffee\u2026 here we go, just start. Start writing, start drawing, start doing whatever.\u201d 46:42 Overcoming Resistance and Building Momentum   Bobby on moving yourself before moving others: Don\u2019t try to manipulate the audience\u2019s emotions: \u201cTry to move yourself to emotion. If you try to move someone else\u2026 you\u2019re trying to tap into someone else\u2019s experience.\u201d Authenticity first: \u201cWrite, draw, create, tell a story that is as authentic to your own voice as it can be.\u201d Art as personal expression: putting your own emotion and opinion into the work. Bobby on why authenticity resonates: People relate most to what feels real and personal: \u201cThe stuff we relate to the most are the things that artists\u2026 seem to be really trying to tell from the inside out.\u201d Trying to make someone happy or sad is normal, but the deeper work comes from creating for yourself first. Bobby on the process of creating large works: Long projects require self-focus: \u201cYou kind of have to do it for yourself\u2026 in the hopes that someone else will see it like that.\u201d Early reviews affirmed authenticity: \u201cI was reading some early reviews\u2026 and I was like, my gosh, they got it. They got it.\u201d The work doesn\u2019t have to resonate with everyone, just someone: \u201cIf it can make you smile, it probably is gonna make someone else smile.\u201d Bobby on art as perspective: Artists share how they see the world: \u201cIf it is a painting that your parents took you to in the museum\u2026 that painter was trying to say, this is how I saw the world.\u201d Audience connection = seeing through the artist\u2019s lens: \u201cIf you looked at that painting and said, I see that. I see that. That\u2019s great. That\u2019s the lens, man. That\u2019s the lens.\u201d (49:59) Where to Find Bobby Website: bobbypedesta.com \u2013 easy to remember and navigate. Bobby on finding North for the Winter: Available anywhere books are sold. Website provides a direct link to purchase at your preferred retailer. Local bookstores can order it within a couple of days if they don\u2019t have it in stock.   Books \/ Works The Iliad  North for the Winter  The Bone Compendium  Heinlein novels (Robert A. Heinlein)   People   Steve Jobs  Homer (epic poet) Elon Musk Donald Trump  Charles Schulz  Robert A. Heinlein  Jeff Smith   ","author_name":"Snafu w\/ Robin Zander","author_url":"http:\/\/www.robinpzander.com\/","html":"