{"version":1,"type":"rich","provider_name":"Libsyn","provider_url":"https:\/\/www.libsyn.com","height":90,"width":600,"title":"How to Not Know with Simone Stolzoff","description":"Welcome back to Snafu w\/ Robin Zander.  In this episode, I\u2019m joined by Simone Stolzoff \u2013 author of The Good Enough Job and the upcoming How to Not Know \u2013 and our opening keynote speaker at Responsive Conference 2025. We explore what it means to have an identity beyond your job title, why rest is essential for high performance, and how ritual and community offer grounding in an age of uncertainty. Simone shares how Judaism and Shabbat have shaped his views on balance, the role of \u201cguardrails\u201d over boundaries, and how we can build more durable lives \u2013 personally and professionally. We talk about the future of religion, the risks and opportunities of AI, and why books still matter even in a tech-saturated world. Simone also offers practical writing advice, previews his next book, and explains why embracing uncertainty may be the most valuable skill of all. Simone will be speaking live at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17\u201318, and I can\u2019t wait for you to hear more. If you haven\u2019t gotten your tickets yet, get them here.   Start (00:00) Identity Beyond Titles (01:07.414) What identities do you hold that aren't listed on your LinkedIn? Simone\u2019s Answer: Ultimate frisbee player \u2013 \u201cthe entirety of my adult life\u201d Aspiring salsa dancer \u2013 taking intro classes with his wife Former spoken word poet \u2013 \u201cIt was the most important thing to me when I was 19 years old.\u201d New father \u2013 navigating life with a five-month-old "I encourage people to ask: what do you like to do, as opposed to what do you do?" Shabbat as a Sanctuary in Time (01:58.831) Robin references Simone's TED Talk, focusing on Shabbat as a metaphor for boundary-setting and presence. Simone expands: Shabbat offers a weekly rhythm to separate work from rest. Emphasizes the idea of "sacred time" and intentional disconnection from screens. Shabbat is a \u201csanctuary in time,\u201d paralleling physical sanctuaries like churches or synagogues. Relates this to work-life balance, noting that intentions alone aren't enough \u2013 infrastructure is needed. "We have intentions\u2026 but what actually leads to balance is structural barriers." Boundaries vs. Guardrails (04:44.32) Cites Anne Helen Petersen\u2019s metaphor: Boundaries = painted lane lines Guardrails = physical barriers that actually keep you on the road There are calls for more guardrails (structural protections) in modern life. Examples: Airplane mode during playtime with his kid Attending yoga or activities where work can\u2019t creep in "Individually imposed boundaries often break down when the pressures of capitalism creep in." Religion, Ritual & Community (06:48.57) Robin asks how Judaism has shaped Simone\u2019s thinking around work and life. Simone reflects: Religion offers a \u201ccontainer\u201d with a different value system than capitalism. As organized religion declined, people turned to work for identity, meaning, and community. Religion can offer rituals to process uncertainty \u2014 e.g., mourning rituals like sitting shiva. Religious or community spaces offer contrast: they don\u2019t care about your career success. "Religion is sort of like a container\u2026 with a value system that isn't just about growth charts." "It can be refreshing to say: Day 1, do this. Day 7, go for a walk." Personal journey: Simone reconnected with Judaism in his 30s as he built his own family. Once, went out of obligation, then rejected it, and now see beauty in ritual and intergenerational wisdom. The Future of Religion & Community (09:12.454) Robin theorizes a future rise in spiritual and communal gatherings: Predicts new spiritual movements or evolutions of old ones Notes a hunger for meaningful in-person connection, especially post-AI and amid tech saturation "There's a hunger... as AI and screens define how we relate, people want to gather in person." "I don\u2019t tend to make predictions, but I think this one\u2019s inevitable." Simone agrees... but offers data as contrast: Cites the decline in religious affiliation in the U.S. 1950s: 3\u20134% unaffiliated Today: Nearly 1 in 3 identify as \u201cNones\u201d (no religion) Notes reasons: Rising wealth tends to increase secularism The internet creates alternate identity spaces "I do believe there is inevitability in the growth [of spirituality]... But the data points the opposite way." Simone reflects on the factors behind declining religious affiliation: Doubt now builds community \u2013 the internet has enabled people to connect around leaving religion as much as practicing it. Political entanglement \u2013 many young Americans, especially, are alienated by the perceived overlap between right-wing politics and Christianity. Yet despite this secular trend, the need for meaning, ritual, and purpose remains universal. \u201cThere still is this fundamental need to find meaning, to find purpose, to find ritual\u2026 even if it\u2019s not in the forms we\u2019re used to.\u201d A Church in the Mission (13:07.182) Robin shares a formative experience from 2016: That year, he launched both Robin\u2019s Caf\u00e9 and the first Responsive Conference. When he walked into the theater space that would become his caf\u00e9, he encountered a young, diverse Christian revival group \u2013 live music, dancing, and energetic worship happening in a Mission District theater. This juxtaposition \u2013 a traditional spiritual gathering inside a modern, \u201chip\u201d venue \u2013 left a lasting impression. \u201cIt felt like a revival meeting in the South\u2026 except it was full of people my age and younger, partying on a Saturday morning \u2013 and it just happened to be church.\u201d You Are More Than Your Work (14:51.182) Robin segues into the idea of multiple identities: He recalls how reading The 4-Hour Work Week helped him embrace not defining himself solely by his entrepreneurial work. Even on tough days running a business, movement and fitness have been a grounding force \u2013 something he does daily, independent of career performance. Quotes from Simone\u2019s TED Talk: \u201cSome people do what they love for work; others work so they can do what they love. Neither is more noble.\u201d Robin asks Simone to share the origin of this line and how it connects to the poet Anis Mojgani. Simone recounts a pivotal conversation during college: As a poetry and economics double major, he was wrestling with career path anxiety. He interviewed his favorite poet, Anis Mojgani, asking: \u201cDo you believe in the idea, \u2018Do what you love and never work a day in your life\u2019?\u201d Mojgani\u2019s response: \u201cSome people do what they love for work. Others do what they have to so they can do what they love when they\u2019re not working. Neither is more noble.\u201d This countered Simone\u2019s expectations and left a deep impression. He highlights two cases for cultivating a broader identity beyond work: Business Case: High performance requires rest. People with \u201cgreater self-complexity\u201d \u2014 more identities outside of work \u2014 are more creative, more resilient, and more emotionally stable. Moral Case: Investing in other parts of ourselves makes us better citizens, community members, and humans. Singular identity (especially career-based) is fragile and susceptible to collapse \u2014 e.g., pandemic layoffs. Solely work-based identity also sets unrealistically high expectations that can lead to disappointment. \u201cYou\u2019re balancing on a very narrow platform\u2026 You\u2019re susceptible to a large gust of wind.\u201d Robin reflects on how the Responsive Manifesto intentionally avoids prescribing one path: It's not anti-work or anti-grind. Recognizes that sometimes hard work is necessary, especially in entrepreneurship. Shares how his friend\u2019s newsletter, Just Go Grind, embraces the idea that seasons of hustle are sometimes required. \u201cEveryone figuring out their own boundaries is actually the goal.\u201d Work Isn't Good or Bad \u2013 It's Complex (18:34.436) Simone adds that society tends to polarize the narrative around work: Some say \u201cburn it all down\u201d, that work is evil. Others say, \u201cDo what you love, or it\u2019s not worth doing.\u201d His book The Good Enough Job argues for a middle way: It\u2019s not hustle propaganda. It\u2019s not a slacker's manifesto. It\u2019s about recognizing that we spend a huge portion of our lives working, so it matters how we approach it, but also recognizing we\u2019re more than just our jobs. He introduces the concept of temporal balance: \u201cThere\u2019s a natural seasonality to work.\u201d Sometimes, long hours are necessary (e.g., startup mode, sales targets). But it should be a season, not a permanent lifestyle. What\u2019s the Role of Books in the Age of AI? (22:41.507) Robin poses a forward-looking question: In an age when AI can summarize, synthesize, and generate information rapidly, what\u2019s the role of books? Especially nonfiction, where facts are easier to reproduce. Simone responds with both uncertainty and hope: Human storytelling as a moat: His work relies on reporting, profiling, and character studies \u2014 something LLMs can\u2019t yet replicate with nuance. He doesn\u2019t know how long this will remain defensible, but will continue to lean into it. Books are more than information: Books have utility beyond facts: they are entertainment, physical objects, and cultural symbols. Quotes the vibe of being surrounded by books: there's even an untranslatable word (possibly German or Japanese) about the comfort of unread books. A vinyl-record future: Books may become more niche, collectible, or artisanal, similar to vinyl. But they still hold society\u2019s most well-formed, deeply considered ideas. The human touch still matters: A typed note that looks handwritten isn\u2019t the same as a note that is handwritten. People will crave authenticity and human creation, especially in a tech-saturated world. \u201cYou can appreciate when something has a level of human touch, especially in an increasingly tech-powered world.\u201d He closes with a self-aware reflection: \u201cI don\u2019t claim to know whether my career will still exist in five years\u2026 which is why I picked this topic for my second book.\u201d \u201cCreated by Humans\u201d (25:49.549) Robin references a conversation with Bree Groff, who imagined a world where creative work carries a \u201cCreated by Human\u201d tag, like organic food labeling. \u201cI think we\u2019ll see that [kind of labeling] in the next few decades \u2013 maybe even in the next few years.\u201d As AI-generated content floods the market, human-made work may soon carry new cultural cachet. Simone shares a turning point: after submitting an op-ed to The New York Times, his editor flagged a bad metaphor. En route to a bachelor party, he opened ChatGPT, asked for new metaphors, chose one, and it made the print edition the next day. \u201cMaybe I\u2019ve broken some law about journalism ethics... but that was the moment where I was like: whoa. This sh*t is crazy.\u201d The Home-Buying Crash Course Powered by AI (27:57) Robin\u2019s breakthrough came while navigating the chaos of buying a house. He used ChatGPT to upskill rapidly: Structural questions (e.g., redwood roots and foundation risk) Zoning and legal research Negotiation tactics \u201cThe rate of learning I was able to create because of these tools was 10 to 100 times faster than what I could\u2019ve done previously.\u201d How to Live Without Knowing (29:41.498) Simone previews his next book, How to Not Know, a field guide for navigating uncertainty. In an age of instant answers, our tolerance for the unknown is shrinking, while uncertainty itself is growing. \u201cWe\u2019re trying to find clarity where there is none. My hope is that the book offers tools to live in that space.\u201d The \u201cThree Horsemen of Delusion\u201d: Comfort \u2013 we crave the ease of certainty. Hubris \u2013 we assume we know more than we do. Control \u2013 we believe certainty gives us power over the future. Robin asks how Simone finds his stories. His answer: chase change. Whether internal (doubt, transformation) or external (leaving a cult, facing rising seas), he seeks tension and evolution. Examples: A couple questioning their marriage An employee leading dissent at work A man leaving his religious identity behind A nation (Tuvalu) confronting its own disappearance \u201cThe story you find is always better than the one you seek.\u201d Want to Be a Writer? Start Writing. (36:50.554) Robin asks for writing advice. Simone offers two pillars: Ask These Four Questions: What\u2019s the story? Why should people care? Why now? Why you? \u201cOnly you can tell the story of buying a caf\u00e9 and selling it on Craigslist.\u201d Build the Practice: Writing is not just inspiration\u2014it\u2019s routine. Schedule it. Join a group. Set deadlines. \u201cWriting is the act of putting your ass in the chair.\u201d Robin applauds Simone\u2019s book title, How to Not Know, for its playfulness and relevance. He asks how Simone\u2019s own relationship with uncertainty has evolved through his research. Simone reflects on how writing his first book, The Good Enough Job, softened his stance, from a hot take to a more nuanced view of work\u2019s role in life. Similarly, with his new book, his thinking on uncertainty has shifted. \u201cUncertainty is uncomfortable by design. That discomfort is what makes us pay attention.\u201d Simone once championed uncertainty for its spontaneity and freedom. But now, he sees a more complex dance between certainty and uncertainty. \u201cCertainty begets the ability to become more comfortable with uncertainty.\u201d He gives the example of a younger self traveling with no plan, and the maturity of seeing how some people use uncertainty to avoid depth and commitment. Durable Skills for an Unstable Future (43:57.613) Robin shifts to the practical: In a world where stability is fading, what should we teach future generations? Simone shares three core \u201cdurable skills\u201d: Learn how to learn \u2013 Adaptability beats certainty. Tell compelling stories \u2013 Human connection never goes out of style. Discern control from chaos \u2013 Use a mental decision tree: What can I control? If I can\u2019t control it, can I prepare? If I can\u2019t prepare, can I accept? \u201cOften we\u2019re more uncomfortable with uncertainty than with a certain bad outcome.\u201d He cites research showing people are stressed more by maybe getting shocked than actually getting shocked. AI as Editor, Not Author (47:23.765) Robin circles back to AI. Simone explains how his relationship with it has evolved: He never uses it for first drafts or ideation. Instead, AI serves as a \u201csparring partner\u201d in editing \u2013 great at spotting drag, less useful at solving it. \u201cPeople are often right about something being wrong, but not about the solution. I treat AI the same way.\u201d Simone defends creative friction as essential to craft: rewriting, deleting, struggling \u2013 that\u2019s the work. The Chinese Farmer & the Fallacy of Forecasts (50:27.215) Robin expresses cautious optimism \u2013 but also fears AI will widen inequality and erode entry-level jobs. He asks what gives Simone hope. Simone counters with the \u201cParable of the Chinese Farmer,\u201d where events can\u2019t be judged good or bad in real time. His conclusion: we don\u2019t know enough to be either pessimistic or optimistic. \u201cMaybe AI ushers in civil unrest. Maybe a golden age. Maybe yes, maybe no.\u201d He\u2019s most hopeful about the growing value of human touch \u2013 gifts of time, love, and effort in an increasingly automated world. Where to Find Simone (53:44.845) Website: thegoodenoughjob.com Newsletter: The Article Book Club (monthly articles not written by him, thousands of subscribers) Robin reminds listeners that Simone will be the opening speaker at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17\u201318.   People Mentioned: M'Gilvry Allen Anne Helen Petersen Anis Mojgani  Bree Groff  Tim Ferriss Steven Pressfield Ernest Hemingway Justin Gordon   Organizations Mentioned:   Responsive Conference Zander Media Asana, Inc X, The Moonshot Factory (formerly Google X)  Waymo,  Jewish Community Centers (Boulder & Denver)  Robin\u2019s Cafe Amazon Google \/ Alphabet    Books & Newsletters The Good Enough Job  How to Not Know (upcoming book) The 4\u2011Hour Workweek Just Go Grind  Article Book Club    ","author_name":"Snafu w\/ Robin Zander","author_url":"http:\/\/www.robinpzander.com\/","html":"