{"version":1,"type":"rich","provider_name":"Libsyn","provider_url":"https:\/\/www.libsyn.com","height":90,"width":600,"title":"Today Was Fun with Bree Groff \u2014 How to Design for Better Work","description":"Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I\u2019m joined by Bree Groff, consultant, writer, and author of Today Was Fun. We talk about why mischief belongs at work, how humor and flirtation create real psychological safety, and the bold design choices behind her unforgettable book cover. Bree shares how she moved from CEO roles to full creative freedom, and how that shift helped her find her voice. We discuss marketing in 2025, how AI might reshape work and writing, and why personal agency, not hours, is the most important lever in a workweek.  Bree offers practical insights for leading with joy, helping kids future-proof their lives, and deciding what\u2019s \u201cenough\u201d in a world that always demands more. She also reflects on writing the book while parenting, consulting, and building her own business, and what it means to embrace the joy of not knowing what comes next. Bree will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I\u2019m thrilled for you to hear her on stage. If you haven\u2019t gotten your tickets yet, get them here. Books Trickster Makes This World: Mischief, Myth, and Art \u2014 Lewis Hyde Anansi Boys \u2014 Neil Gaiman Work Less, Do More: Designing the 4-Day Week \u2014 Alex Pang Shorter: Work Better, Smarter, and Less\u2015Here's How \u2014 Alex Pang Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less \u2014 Alex Pang Perennial Seller: The Art of Making and Marketing Work that Lasts \u2014 Ryan Holiday Today Was Fun \u2014 Bree Groff The 4-Hour Workweek \u2014Tim Ferriss Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization \u2014 Robin Zander Podcasts\/Videos TED Talk: How to Start a Movement \u2014 Derek Sivers Start (0:00) The Story Behind the Book Cover (00:07.822) Robin opens with a personal observation: Bree\u2019s nails are the exact shade of green as her book cover \u2013 a smiley face on a highlighter yellow-green background.  Bree laughs and explains the choice behind the bold, offbeat cover: It was designed by Rodrigo Corral, known for iconic covers like The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fck*. When she first saw it (at 3 a.m.), she gasped and loved it \u2014 it stood out and made a statement. The smiley is cheeky but not cheesy; it suggests optimism with a bite. The color isn\u2019t quite yellow \u2014 it\u2019s that \u201cgross green\u201d that almost hurts to look at. That tension is the point. \u201cIt\u2019s got some edge... not your straight-up yellow.\u201d This tension \u2013 bright and fun, but just a bit weird or off \u2013  is exactly the tone she wanted for the book and for herself. The Wink That Makes Work Fun Again (01:51) Robin brings up his old graduation photo: he posed slightly off-center, adding a knowing smirk. At the time, he didn\u2019t know why he chose that shot, but later realized it made people curious, like a small rebellion baked into something formal. Bree relates completely. She talks about: Why humor and a bit of mischief matter in professional settings. The concept of flirtation \u2013 not romantic, but playful: A wink in a branding campaign. A reference that only a few insiders get. A running joke between team members. Mischief creates risk and intimacy, both essential for real connection. These small acts of rebellion are actually signs of psychological safety and creativity. \u201cYou need a little bit of flirtation at work... a wink that says, \u2018we\u2019re in this together.\u2019\u201d She argues that fun isn\u2019t a distraction \u2013 it\u2019s a sign that something is working. Tricksters, SNAFUs, and the Role of Risk in Work (05:49.219) Robin brings in the idea of the trickster, from folklore characters like Anansi and Coyote to his podcast title SNAFU. These figures don\u2019t follow the rules, and that\u2019s what makes them interesting. Bree expands on the connection between play and professionalism: There\u2019s a cultural script that says \u201cseriousness = competence.\u201d But in her experience, some of the best work moments involve play, risk, and even slight embarrassment. Being human together \u2013 laughing too loud, saying something weird, trying something bold \u2013 is what builds bonds. Real joy at work comes from these edge moments, not the sanitized ones. \u201cYou have to go beyond professionalism to access the most fun parts of work.\u201d They agree that creating spaces where people can color outside the lines is not just fun \u2013 it\u2019s productive. Beyond Palatable: From People-Pleasing to Belonging (08:29.068) Robin shares a lesson from his mother: that once you leave high school, life is no longer a popularity contest. But he\u2019s realized that in business, especially branding, people often still chase approval and \u201clikability.\u201d Bree offers a deeper lens: Being \u201cpalatable\u201d \u2013 meaning universally acceptable \u2013 is actually the opposite of being memorable. People who try to please everyone end up blending in. What she wants is to be delicious, or at least striking, not for everyone, but unforgettable to some. She draws a line between Fitting in: performing a version of yourself to meet social norms. Belonging: being your full, vibrant self and finding others who welcome it. \u201cPlease don\u2019t chew me up. I\u2019m not palatable \u2014 I\u2019m not trying to be.\u201d This philosophy shows up in her book\u2019s voice, design, and in how she shows up in the world. Selling a Book in 2025: Bottles in the Ocean (12:21.838) What's it been like trying to promote a book in 2025? Bree describes her strategy as both scrappy and intuitive: She thinks of book marketing as sending \u201ca million notes in bottles\u201d \u2013 not knowing which will land. Her approach includes: Partnering with a publicist. Creating swag kits with branded gear. Pitching the book to \u201cchatty\u201d communities (e.g., alumni groups, newsletters, podcast audiences). Posting regularly, even when it feels silly. She cites the idea of \u201cluck surface area\u201d: the more interesting things you do, and the more people you tell, the more chances something will stick. \u201cYou do interesting things and talk about them a lot... and maybe something takes off.\u201d Still, she acknowledges that luck plays a role. There\u2019s no guaranteed playbook, just momentum and hope. Is It Worth Talking About? (14:47.63) Robin references a quote from Tucker Max: that all marketing, in the end, is just word-of-mouth. Bree shares what guided her during the writing process: Her goal was to create something remarkable \u2014 in the literal sense: Something people would want to talk about. Not just good \u2013 but distinct, resonant, and weird enough to share. She wanted to avoid the \u201cbusiness book voice\u201d \u2013 flat, generic, overly polished. She lights up when she talks about: Strangers sharing the book on social. Friends are texting her about it. An old college boyfriend resurfaced after reading it. \u201cWhen that starts happening... You realize the machine is working.\u201d She\u2019s less interested in best-seller lists and more focused on impact \u2013 ideas spreading from person to person, because they hit. Finding Her Voice: From Blogger to Book Author (16:36.665) Bree traces the evolution of her writing life: Started a travel blog in her early 20s and loved it immediately. Played with writing publicly over the years: occasional posts on LinkedIn, Fast Company, and later Substack (which began two years ago, alongside early book ideation). Writing always felt natural, but being a public voice within organizations came with constraints: \u201cEven when I was CEO, I still felt the need to toe the party line.\u201d Going solo changed everything: No longer represents a company\u2019s brand \u2013 just her own. Writing feels more honest, bolder, and more fun when it\u2019s \u201cBree Groff\u2019s opinions\u201d alone. Stepping out independently accelerated her writing voice and gave her creative freedom. Writing in the Age of AI (18:19.63) Robin asks: Does writing still matter in the world of AI? Bree\u2019s take: She\u2019s a verbal processor \u2014 writing is how she discovers what she believes. \u201cI never know how an article is going to end\u2026 I write my way into the idea.\u201d She rarely uses AI in writing (aside from Grammarly). She prefers human composition even for emails. Writing helps her organize and refine her thinking: \u201cI\u2019ll write a sentence and go \u2013 wait, do I believe that? And rewrite.\u201d What writing offers that AI can\u2019t (yet): Emotional authenticity. A confessional power \u2014 like stand-up comedy: humans telling uncomfortable truths, out loud. She hopes we\u2019ll someday have digital labels like: \u201cThis was made by a human.\u201d Robin presses for Bree\u2019s take on what AI changes \u2013 for better or worse. Bree\u2019s pessimistic view: Mass unemployment is a likely risk. Not convinced by the \u201ctech creates more jobs\u201d argument \u2013 even referencing Jevons Paradox: as things become more efficient, we just use more of them. \u201cI can\u2019t quite think my way out of the unemployment problem.\u201d Bree\u2019s optimistic vision: We\u2019re burned out. AI could fix that. If used right, AI can reduce workloads, not eliminate humans: \u201cWouldn\u2019t it be great if we used these efficiencies to help people live happy, regulated lives?\u201d This would require a policy change, like tax incentives for companies that adopt a 4-day workweek. But she admits: that\u2019s a long shot. \u201cIt would take a lot for companies to prioritize reducing burnout over cutting costs.\u201d Entrepreneurship Isn\u2019t a 4-Day Workweek (And That\u2019s Okay) (25:04.686) Robin challenges Bree\u2019s hope with reality: Entrepreneurship is chaotic and demanding, as when he launched both a restaurant and a conference in one year. When building something from scratch, the work is relentless. \u201cThere\u2019s no 4-day workweek when you\u2019re going zero to one.\u201d He notes Bree\u2019s book could become a \u201cperennial seller,\u201d but only if she builds that momentum now \u2014 and that means hustle. Bree agrees \u2014 and offers nuance: She\u2019s in a launch phase. The last 6 weeks have been intense: Nights, weekends, articles, appearances. Her daughter is in a full-day camp to support this push. But it\u2019s intentional and temporary. She frames her philosophy like this: Overwork can be fun, energizing, even addictive \u2013  if it\u2019s seasonal. She\u2019s already planned recovery: A two-week log-off in late August. A blocked-out first week of September for reset. Bree continues on the myth of \u201creasonable\u201d work limits: There\u2019s nothing special about 40 or 60 hours. The only reason we cap out is that we literally run out of time. Businesses will take as much as you give, and now AI won\u2019t hit those limits. So we have to decide what\u2019s enough, not the market. \u201cIf we\u2019re going to cap work somewhere, why not cap it lower and enjoy our lives?\u201d She reminds us: Deadlines and pace are levers, not laws. You can pull other levers, like starting earlier, extending timelines, or balancing your team differently. Robin shares that his intense physical regimen (handstands, running, cold plunges, hikes) isn\u2019t about health prescriptions \u2014 it\u2019s about joy. That same mindset applies to work. If building his company lights him up, great \u2013 but it\u2019s a personal choice, not a universal blueprint. Bree underscores that agency is key: the danger arises when a founder\u2019s choice to overwork becomes the cultural expectation for everyone else. A CEO has different stakes than employees; assuming equal sacrifice is unfair and toxic. Overwork becomes problematic when choice is removed or social pressure distorts it. They introduce the idea of opportunity cost: Every hour spent grinding is an hour not spent with loved ones, moving your body, or simply resting. Many delay self-care with the illusion they\u2019ll "catch up later" \u2013 but your body and relationships exist in the now. Robin recalls a brutal 2016: two startups, no time, lost relationships \u2013 a visceral reminder that everything has a cost. Work, But Make It Weird (36:39) Robin draws a parallel between their playful ethos and The 4-Hour Workweek: redefining productivity with mischief and authenticity. He asks Bree how leaders can lead differently \u2013 more playfully \u2013 without violating norms or HR policies. Bree delivers a gem: Her team once suggested that a CEO explain their product to a bunch of 7-year-olds on a picnic blanket. They scripted techy questions ("What\u2019s your tech stack?") for the kids, hired a comedy consultant, and filmed the whole thing. It was wild, unexpected\u2026 and the most beloved part of an otherwise traditional company week. The magic was in the vulnerability and humanity of the CEO \u2014 letting people into his home, sharing space with kids, and showing joy. Bree\u2019s advice to leaders: Rearrange the office furniture for no reason. Use Comic Sans in a slide just to annoy a designer. Hide jokes in presentations that only two people will catch. Amuse yourself. That\u2019s reason enough, and it models psychological safety and play for everyone else. Robin calls this \u201cthe courage to play\u201d \u2013 the bravery to step out of line just enough to invite others into the fun. Bree builds on this: We\u2019re often afraid that having fun will make us look stupid \u2013 but that fear is misplaced. She quotes Amy Poehler: \u201cNobody looks stupid when they\u2019re having fun.\u201d Play is an act of self-assurance, not frivolity. Bree shares a personal win: she turned a project Gantt chart into a hand-drawn arcade-style horse race. No one else joined in, but she loved it. And that joy, in and of itself, is a worthy output. Work According to a 10-Year-Old (42:21.176) Robin asks: How does Bree\u2019s daughter describe what she does? Her answer? \u201cYou help people work together.\u201d Bree beams \u2014 that\u2019s not far off. Her daughter has even become her little publicist, linking nail polish to Bree\u2019s book and promoting it to strangers. Robin dreams of having kids and wonders about their future in a rapidly evolving world. Bree is grateful her daughter is 10, not 22 \u2013 the future feels so uncertain that not knowing is oddly freeing. College may or may not matter; she might be a marketing manager or start an artist retreat in Tuscany. The one stable prediction? Human connection. Jobs built on empathy, presence, and the hug \u2013 literal or metaphorical \u2013 will always have value. Robin jokes (but not really) about resisting the idea of robot romantic partners. Bree wonders: Will we be seen as biased for resisting AI companionship? Is that the next generational tension? The Only Skill That Might Still Matter in 2040 (43:55.959) Robin asks: What durable skills should Gen Alpha learn in a world of AI and noise? Bree\u2019s first thought: \u201cunderstanding human behavior\u201d \u2014 but AI might already be better at that. So she lands on something deeper: The skill of knowing what kind of life you want to lead. It\u2019s rarely taught, and sorely needed. That\u2019s why so many people wake up at 40, mid-career, with a law degree but no love for the law, and end up switching to something that finally feels like them. Teaching kids to listen to their appetites and curiosities might be the most powerful, future-proof education we can offer. Bree argues that most people were never taught to ask foundational questions about the life they truly want: From childhood to college, we follow preset tracks \u2013 curriculum, majors, careers. If you\u2019re lucky, you get an elective or two. But real self-inquiry? Rare. We\u2019re missing education on key lifestyle preferences: What kind of schedule do I like? What kind of people energize me? Do I want to live in a city or near nature? How much solitude, structure, or chaos is ideal for me? Bree believes this underdeveloped self-awareness is the root cause of burnout: People follow \u201cthe path,\u201d get promoted, tick boxes, and still feel unsatisfied. Companies gladly fill the vacuum with corporate ladders and titles \u2013 senior director, VP, etc. But we rarely stop to ask: Do I want my boss\u2019s job? Her hope for her daughter: not just career success, but aliveness. To develop the instincts and courage to ask: What do I want to get out of my short time here? And to find joy in helping others experience a bit more light while they\u2019re here, too. \u201cWho Are You and What Is Your Purpose?\u201d (51:33.666) Robin shares a surprising memory: a third-grade class titled Who Are You and What Is Your Purpose? He doesn\u2019t remember the content \u2013 school was tough for him then \u2013 but the title stuck. It captured something real and deep that still resonates. Bree lights up: \u201cOkay, I take it all back \u2013 someone was teaching this, and it was you!\u201d They land on a core truth: that mischief, self-knowledge, and authenticity are deeply intertwined. Knowing who you are is the first step. And honoring the weird, playful part of yourself makes life better \u2014 and work richer. Order, Chaos & a Trello Board (53:51) Robin pivots: What did Bree learn about writing through this book, especially while juggling parenting and client work? Bree shares her full process: She started with a Trello board: each list represented a chapter. Over many months, she collected bits of inspiration: ideas from the shower, great quotes, Substack entries, research snippets \u2013 all filed as cards. This meant when it came time to write, she wasn\u2019t starting from scratch. Her trick: separate idea collection from prose creation. Once she had a "pile of disorganized meat," she could stitch it together with intention. She scheduled 4-hour blocks to write ~1,000 words per session \u2013 50 sessions = a 50,000-word book. She was thoughtful about pacing and reader experience: "That was a heavy part \u2013 maybe time for a joke. "I\u2019ve been light for a while \u2013 maybe we need some grounding research." The outcome: a process that respected her creativity, time, and humanity. The Joy of Not Knowing What\u2019s Next (54:45.848) Robin asks: Now that the book is out, what\u2019s next? Bree doesn\u2019t know, and that feels exciting. She\u2019s booked through the fall with workshops, consulting, media, and speaking. But beyond that? It\u2019s open. She\u2019s leaning into serendipity: Publishing the book drew new, inspiring people into her life \u2013 people like Robin. She\u2019s open to building the classic \u201cauthor-speaker-consultant\u201d portfolio. Or possibly returning to SYPartners, depending on what fits. Or a totally new path. What makes it possible? A jumpy career history \u2013 she\u2019s used to leaps. A baseline of financial stability \u2013 and a partner with a more predictable job. Uncertainty isn\u2019t terrifying when you trust yourself to figure it out. \u201cI can see through October. That\u2019s enough.\u201d Robin wraps with heartfelt praise: Few first books feel as personal and reflective of their author as Today Was Fun. Even fewer come with so many shared connections vouching not just for the content, but the author herself. Where to Find Bree Groff (58:13.58) He urges people to read the book and see Bree on stage at the Responsive Conference (Sept 17\u201318). Bree shares where to find her: Website: breegroff.com Substack, LinkedIn, Instagram \u2013 all linked from her site. People Mentioned: Rodrigo Corral Lewis Hyde Neil Gaiman Tony Hsieh James Clear Tucker Max Alex Pang Ryan Holiday Tim Ferriss Amy Poehler Derek Sivers Justin Gordon BJ Fogg Seth Godin Organizations \/ Companies Zander Media SYPartners Nobel Zappos Microsoft Trello Substack AOL LinkedIn Instagram   ","author_name":"Snafu w\/ Robin Zander","author_url":"http:\/\/www.robinpzander.com\/","html":"