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Why HR Needs a Seat at the Table
First aired 10/18/2026 You've spoken up. You've set the boundary. Two years later, nothing has changed. For a lot of high performers, that's the moment burnout sets in and they quietly check out. In this episode, Dana sits down with Timothy Ernst, an HR and organizational development leader with more than three decades of experience in manufacturing and construction, to ask what really has to change when saying the words isn't enough. Tim got into HR "backwards," moving from broadcast journalism into organizational development, and he has spent his career learning the work from the assembly line to the construction site. Together, they talk about why HR needs a seat at the table, the difference between listening and truly hearing, why turnover is the clearest measure of culture, what to do when your company has no HR department, and why AI is a tool, not a replacement for people. Watch this episode https://youtu.be/Vlkctg2-GaI In this episode Why HR earns its seat at the table by understanding operations and the P&L, and how to move from tactical to strategic The difference between a manager who listens and a leader who truly hears, and why humility and owning mistakes build trust Why turnover, especially among your high-potential employees, is the clearest measure of your culture, and how quiet quitting begins What to do when you've spoken up and nothing changes, including when there is no HR department Why AI is a powerful tool but people still have to execute, and the five connected systems behind a healthy culture Timestamps (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet Timothy Ernst, an HR and organizational development leader with 30+ years of experience (02:58) Getting into HR "backwards": from broadcast journalism to organizational development (04:55) Lessons from Whirlpool and a "PhD level education in human emotion" (06:20) Why HR needs a seat at the table: learning the business and the P&L (07:57) How HR is viewed and the pain points of working in HR (09:04) Tactical vs. strategic HR, and creating a safe space to talk (10:26) Keeping veteran knowledge in-house by leveraging experienced leaders for their minds (12:48) You've spoken up for two years and nothing has changed: now what? (14:54) Listening vs. hearing, and why leaders need humility (16:51) Daily management systems: what happens when nobody's watching (18:18) Leading virtual teams and building trust through intentional check-ins (19:53) Belonging, burnout, and quiet quitting (21:21) Turnover and high-potential employees as a measure of culture (21:46) "Do more with less," overwhelm, and the cost of burnout (23:59) What leaders and HR can do: play to strengths and give stretch assignments (26:56) No HR department? Ask your manager: can you take a risk? (28:01) Dana's "yards" model of boundaries (29:27) How AI will impact the workplace: a tool, not a replacement (32:03) Authenticity in an AI-assisted world (33:14) Keeping your own voice, and Tim's book Systems Over Slogans (35:17) Where to find Timothy Ernst and his books (37:53) Why his book is different: communication, conflict, and five connected systems About Timothy Ernst Timothy Ernst is an HR, organizational development, and leadership development professional with more than three decades of experience at the intersection of people, operations, and business strategy. He began in broadcast journalism, found his way into organizational development at Western Kentucky University, and went on to work at Whirlpool and in the construction industry, where he made a point of working alongside crews to see the job through their eyes. He is writing two books: Systems Over Slogans: How Leaders Build Cultures That Perform, Adapt, and Endure, and a second on leveraging HR as a strategic partner. Connect with Timothy on LinkedIn and follow him there for updates on his books. Favorite quotes "There is a very big difference between listening and hearing." —Timothy Ernst "They've quit on the job, they just forgot to tell you." —Timothy Ernst "You're never going to know that until you take that risk and ask the question." —Timothy Ernst Resources mentioned Systems Over Slogans: How Leaders Build Cultures That Perform, Adapt, and Endure by Timothy Ernst: follow Timothy on LinkedIn for release updates Timothy's second book on HR as a strategic partner: currently in progress Timothy Ernst on LinkedIn Subscribe & connect If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show. Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here. Ready to find your own voice on stage? Dana's a big fan of Mic Drop Academy, a public speaking and group coaching program built for women. Watch the free webinar, join a workshop, or dive into the bootcamp to build the confidence to speak up and be heard. (These are affiliate links — Dana may earn a commission at no extra cost to you.) Read the full transcript Dana (00:01) Welcome friends. Whether you're out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, it's wonderful to connect with you. Joining us today is Timothy Ernst. Now, Timothy, for more than three decades, worked at the intersection of human resources, organizational development, leadership development. Dana (00:28) And business strategy, but then he became fascinated with a question. Why do some organizations achieve sustainable success while others struggle? Even though all the organizations have access to similar resources, technology, and opportunities. Tim, welcome to Phoenix in Flame. Timothy Ernst (00:56) Thanks for having me, Dana. I really appreciate it. Dana (00:59) This is amazing. Now guys, I I ran across Tim on LinkedIn because as we'll do and and I'm wanting to support high performers and burnout and and all the things and so I'm trying to connect with people. Well what you what happens on LinkedIn, for those that don't know, it can be a fabulous place and sometimes you run into folks that I don't know, they're dry. They seem like they're they have good words. Dana (01:29) Good words, good descriptions, but then when you try to make a connection and you try to create a relationship to get something to happen, there's just there's not a lot there. either they're not interested or to be brutally honest, and that's what we're like on Phoenix and Flame, they're just really boring. Right? It's just like you fall asleep talking to them, all right. So Dana (01:55) Tim and I, that's not what happened. We I I found him on there. I'm like, my gosh, I love what he was standing for. I love his his supportive people, which we're gonna get into all of this. And then we reached out and we had a connection call. And we really we had fun, we laughed, we we we had a good time and we talked about stuff that really mattered because I could tell from Tim, and we're gonna we're gonna unpack it here, that he was willing to go there and address the real things and say the words. Dana (02:22) Because I really don't have a lot of patience for people that aren't willing to go there and address the real issues. Cause as a therapist, I hear about these real issues in my office. So this is where people really live. And so if we can't talk about it, we're wasting time as far as I'm concerned. So Tim, I'm very glad to have you on Phoenix and Flame. So, I like to create space in the beginning of the podcast for my guests to Timothy Ernst (02:47) That's fair. Dana (02:47) decide, do you want to start at the beginning? Dana (02:52) Y H R. Or do you have a story you want to jump right into? We'll go wherever you want to go. Timothy Ernst (02:58) Well, I like to tell people that I got into the HR space backwards. I was I I tell the story, I'm one of these guys that knew exactly what he wanted to do when he graduated high school. I went into college, jumped into broadcast journalism, radio and TV news. And by my junior year, I was going, there has got to be more to life than dealing with everyone's tragedies. the the media back then is definitely not the media that it is today. Timothy Ernst (03:28) this whole if it bleeds, it leads mentality. It just it it really wore on. I was asked April before May graduation, where I went to the Western Kentucky University. They asked me, Hey, do you want to come back and work on your master's degree? We feel like you've got a lot of things that you can teach us. We still feel like we have things that we can teach you. and by the way, we'll pay you to teach. Okay. Hey. Timothy Ernst (03:57) Real life or stay in school. I'll stay in school. I very quickly learned why I was there. I found this class in training and organizational development. This is where I say I got into HR backwards. I went in through the OD side of things. learned how to connect. I had used a lot of the knowledge and skill that I had developed in the broadcast field, started doing safety videos, stuff like that. Timothy Ernst (04:27) I ran across Dr. Randy Caps. He was the head of the Department of Communication and Broadcasting. he one of his largest customers that he was working with through his consulting business was the Lowpool Corporation. He asked me if I would work, come and work for him. he took me under, yes, ma'am, the local pool corporation. Dana (04:44) Was that whir whirlpool you said? Okay. Gotcha. Timothy Ernst (04:48) Right Randy took me under his wing. And I I can honestly say that when we look back at my career. Timothy Ernst (04:55) There are individuals that I can say, I am where I am because they made me a better version of me. Randy really lit that flame. so at Whirlpool, after about five years there, moving a 53-year-old manufacturing facility from a management-based organization and a team-based organization, I really got a PhD level education in human emotion. Timothy Ernst (05:23) And you know how to answer questions, how to deal with issues. I have this phrase that I've always said when it comes to confronting issues. I'm gonna light my hair on fire, I'm gonna strip down naked, and I'm gonna run right through the middle of it. And I know that that's rather visual and rather blunt, Dana (05:40) Imagery. Timothy Ernst (05:42) but when it comes to confronting issues, well, when it comes to confronting issues, I I feel like Timothy Ernst (05:51) People are afraid to I'm gonna say the wrong thing, I'm gonna do the wrong thing. And I think part of that is just because we've become such a litigious society. but I knew that if I wanted to keep my hand in the training and in the OD field, in this part of the country, I'm in the Kentucky area, this part of the country, you have no choice but to go into the human resources side of the business. So I have Timothy Ernst (06:20) Always gone into HR with what I'm going to say are my eyes wide open. I look at HR through the lens of operations. And I think that that's an important piece. I'm actually I'm writing a second book now on leveraging HR as a strategic partner. And one of the things that I point out is HR really needs to have a seat at the table. Well, how do you get that seat at the table? Timothy Ernst (06:49) You have to understand how the business works, how the business runs, the financial success. You have to understand the PL. I'm I'm very fortunate in my career in that I've had leaders that have said, go and learn. So, when I was at Whirlpool, I would go out and work on the assembly line. I stood shoulder to shoulder. I learned through the eyes of what the men and women went through on a daily basis. When I worked in construction. Timothy Ernst (07:15) I would put steel toe boots on, my hard hat, hide this vest, I'd jump in a hole and grab a shovel. People looked at me like I had two heads. But for me, it was about seeing it through their eyes. You've heard the expression walk a mile in a man's moccasins. It's more than that. It's it's truly about experiencing what they go through on a day in and day out basis. And trust me, when you're standing in a hole in a hole or whether you're moving a Timothy Ernst (07:42) a heavy item that's over a half a million pounds and you're doing it in the hot summer in the in the heat or you're doing it in the winter in the cold, it gives you a different perspective that you wouldn't have Dana (07:55) So as you're talking, Timothy Ernst (07:56) Right. Dana (07:57) I'm thinking of a couple of questions, and you can take them in whichever order you would like. One of them is, how do you think, and from your experience, how do you believe that people view HR? Dana (08:12) Like employees and and you could you could go from probably who who am I talking about? Am I talking about C suite? Am I talking about employees? how from your experience, how has HR been viewed? that's one question. And number two, and they dovetail together. The question is, what have you experienced are the pain points Dana (08:35) Of being in human resources. when you go in there, Timothy Ernst (08:39) Yep. Dana (08:39) what are the the areas that just they're just like that that the thorn that just you can't quite get pulled out of your side that you've noticed repetitively. It's not just a one business situation, it's it's an HR experience that seems to go across and and other HR, people that you've talked to speak of the same thing. So those are two different questions, but they're related. Timothy Ernst (09:04) So I had the privilege of working for a family road construction business. They've been around for over 25 years, helped that organization really to grow beyond their own expectations, learned a lot from that family. And it was while I was there that I really started to understand that in my past, HR was always views, was always viewed as tactical. What do I mean by that? Timothy Ernst (09:31) You write the handbooks, you create the policies, you do all the hiring, you do all the firing. HR was one of those places that you only went when you either A had a problem or B were in trouble. I'm not a fan of that. I always had this philosophy that said, look, you're gonna have good days, you're gonna have bad days. I would rather you come into my office, shut the door, drop every F bomb under the sun. Timothy Ernst (09:57) My only request was at the end of that, say, Tim, thanks for listening. I feel so much better. Open that door and leave. And I will never say another word to you. I I wanted to create a safe space. I wanted it to be a place where if people needed to come and talk, I could just listen and lend an ear. and I think that's where I think that viewpoint creates an issue, meaning that HR is just tactical. Timothy Ernst (10:26) I think where HR really needs to separate itself. And I think in the organizations that have a very healthy and a very strong culture, HR is more strategic. and what I mean by that is, they're looking at do we have our ACEs in their places? from a a longevity perspective, when we're looking at turnover, what are we going to do with our, superintendents that have been there for 30 years that have a Timothy Ernst (10:56) Of experience. Unfortunately, when they leave, that knowledge goes with them. And one of the things that I've tried to do is, there's still a lot of value. whether it's creating a training school or doing training on site, I'm bringing a lot of those superintendents in and I'm leveraging for their leveraging them for their minds and not for their backs. Why am I leveraging for them for their minds? Timothy Ernst (11:22) They've got 30 and 40 years of experience. I want that knowledge and skill to stay in-house. And so what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to duplicate in those employees, those team members, the knowledge that that superintendent has. How great would it be if all of your leaders were able to, you were able to duplicate yourself in five, six, seven people? That's five, six, seven people that now have that knowledge. Timothy Ernst (11:49) It it's the it's easy to say that if I had three superintendents and I put them in front of me, all three of them would approach a problem differently. Not a problem with that, especially if there's no wrong way to solve that problem. What if all three of those superintendents taught seven people how to solve the same problem? Every one of those individuals gets a different perspective. They get to pick the one that really resonates with them, their style, their methodology. Timothy Ernst (12:19) And I think again, that's where HR really needs to go. That's how HR gets a seat at the table, it's being more strategic. You can live in both worlds in HR. You can be strategic and you can be tactical. One of the things that you're going to find out is that if you're living on the tactical side all the time, you're too busy to be strategic. There's a balance that you have to carefully walk and carefully take. Dana (12:48) Well, and I hear you describing wonderfully a lot of solutions and and working with people and trying to help train so that more people can know the wisdom and share that around. Being a therapist, I hear the other side of things to where you have employees that they they might be able to come talk. You mentioned earlier that they would come in and you might give them a an amazingly safe place to speak and to to sh Dana (13:17) to share their frustrations. But at some point, and I'm sure you would agree, there has to be change. Dana (13:24) Because what I'm what I'm conversations that I'm hearing is that, yes, I've I've Timothy Ernst (13:27) That's where that leadership development comes from. Dana (13:29) said all the words. I've they said Dana, because I'm the queen of boundaries. And so I'm like, okay, I'm talking to them and I'm saying it's your responsibility. If you have a frustration about something, if you're having an experience at work that is really annoying you, frustrating you, if you're being taken advantage of by a coworker, if you feel like you have too much work on your your plate, you can't do it all, you're not a robot, you're you're having panic attacks, all these things. I said you have to speak this because Dana (13:54) that other people just don't magically know what you're Timothy Ernst (13:57) Yeah. Dana (13:57) thinking and feeling and that's part of boundaries. They're telling me, Dana, that sounds great and it is great. And I did speak my words and I've spoken my words for two years and nothing has changed. So for those listeners out there or the viewers on YouTube that might be one of those individuals that are listening to this podcast and they're wanting us to get real. They're wanting us to Dana (14:21) say something that they're experiencing and thinking how what are they supposed to do as as an HR expert? Maybe they work for a business that has an HR department, maybe it doesn't. And so I'd really like to know if they work for a place that does have an HR department, what should they do? And what if they work for some place that it maybe is a smaller hometown business and they don't have an HR department, but Dana (14:47) How do they advocate for themselves and they've talked themselves to death and nothing is changing? Timothy Ernst (14:54) So, last case scenario is, hey, I'm I'm not a matcher, I'm not a fit here. And then what they do is they find themselves putting their resume out there and, they they speak with their feet. a lot of organizations that I've worked in in the past, when you look at turnover, for me, it's okay, why did that turnover occur? Well, there's a couple of things that I've generally found. in some cases, my manager listens. Timothy Ernst (15:25) That's fine, but does he hear you? And there is a very big difference between listening and hearing. listening is just the art of sound. that's the shout the sound waves go into the ear, they stimulate the facilli, they just they go into the cocoa. when when when when leaders actually hear you, they're listening with their mind and their heart, but I think in order for leaders to do that. Timothy Ernst (15:54) There has to be a level of humility there. in psychology, they use this analogy of peeling the onion. I'm not saying that people have to know all of your deep dark secrets. It's not about that. Number one, people have to know that people have to know that just like you, you make mistakes. And, one of the things that I've that I've done is look, when I make a mistake, I own it. And if it's a mistake that I've made and it involves my team. Timothy Ernst (16:22) I talk to my team about it. Hey guys, this is what I did. This is what I did long. This is what I should have done. and here's what I'm doing to try to correct it. and by doing that, what it does is it it puts you into that position of allowing yourself to be human. I'm writing a book right now on I'm going through and I'm I'm doing a rewrite on a book on organizational culture. And there's five things that I have found that are interconnected. Timothy Ernst (16:51) That really work together to create a healthy organizational culture. One of those things is what I call, daily management systems. What's a daily management system? Well, it's the things that happen when nobody's watching. It's how do you present yourself? How do you act? How do you speak? What words do you choose? the manner in which you choose to speak those words. It's how you represent yourself within that organization. Timothy Ernst (17:22) It's it's one thing to be one way when you're in front of a group of people or if you're an executive around a group of executives. But when those executives aren't there, when you're wearing a company logo, you're flying their flag, you're walking down the hall, what is that like? It's, how do you are you out of character? If you see something wrong, do you say something? The manner in which you say it, do you lose your temper, raise your voice? Timothy Ernst (17:52) Do you demand things? I don't I don't do that. I have conversations with people. I ask. I set some expectations. But I don't set expectations that I'm not willing to follow myself. And I think that's one of the big differentiators that we're seeing in business today is that, since COVID. Timothy Ernst (18:18) I saw this early even pre-COVID, but since COVID seems to have gotten worse. organizations have become scattered. you see more and more people working from home. This is this camera and and their computer. It's how they connect with people. And I think it's harder for leaders today to be able to keep that camaraderie with their team when this is the method that they have. Timothy Ernst (18:45) I was talking to a manager the other day and I made the comment. I said, understand you're managing people virtually. How many times do you have a check a just check-in just to see how they're doing, how they're working, how things are going? Do they need anything? It's it's one of those calls that you make that basically says, look. Timothy Ernst (19:06) You're what's going on with you is more important right now. How can I help you? he goes, I never do that. He said, I'll bet if you start doing it the first time you do it, you're gonna raise an eyebrow. What's what are they up to? The second time you do it, yeah, exactly. Dana (19:20) Yeah. Alter motive. What do they want? Timothy Ernst (19:24) Well, it's it's you haven't established trust. That's the key. You have Dana (19:30) Mm-hmm. Timothy Ernst (19:30) to have that trust there. Timothy Ernst (19:33) And I think the second time you do it, the third time that you do it, the fourth time you do it with intent, people start to see, hey, they really are trying to connect. They really are trying to be different. They really are trying to make me feel like I'm part of a a bigger process. And and honestly, I think Dana (19:49) Well, and I I don't Timothy Ernst (19:51) that's the thing that's missing. Dana (19:53) the and I don't have the statistics with me right at at at the table, but statistics show that people will tolerate quite a bit of of unrest, of upset if they feel like they are connected, if they feel like they belong. And one of the things that we had talked about before was that when people start to get burnt out Dana (20:18) They disengage. They they like they pull away. I feel in my mind I see it like two train cars on a track and they just decouple. They just just start moving apart. They're not connected. Timothy Ernst (20:27) There's a term there's a term Timothy Ernst (20:29) for that now that they use in business. It's called quiet quitting. It's people Dana (20:32) Yes. Timothy Ernst (20:33) that they're still there, they're still occupying a space. They've quit on the job, they just forgot to tell you. So by not having or establishing trust early on, that's what happens. you make a great point, Dana. team members will stay and put up with more when Timothy Ernst (20:53) They feel like they're a part of the process when they feel like that the organization has their best interest in part, or the organization is going to help them grow and develop. If they're just if they just feel like, hey, the only reason I'm here is to do ABC XYZ, I come in, I go home, I collect a paycheck. I come in, I go home, I collect the paycheck. There's nothing else for me, they're going to start looking. if you want to know. Timothy Ernst (21:21) how strong your culture is. What's your turnover like? And it's not just turnover, but how many key employees or high potential employees that you've identified are leaving. And I think if you start to identify, where those high potentials are and the turnover at that level, it's going to say a lot about your culture. Dana (21:46) Well, and see, that's amazing. It and it's so true. And I'm wondering what how you see the role of HR in helping the leaders see what's going on because I see a scenario where sometimes the leaders are allowing the team members to become overwhelmed. They there's a layoff by attrition going on and and they're they're getting more and more things put on their plate and they're told just Dana (22:16) Just figure it out, right? And and Timothy Ernst (22:17) Do more with mass. Dana (22:18) people can do that to a point. you have amazing people and they will take on more. They'll figure out how to work smarter, not harder. They and that's an you put them in a a vice like that. And some people are amazing at what they come out, but everybody has a limit because we are not cyborgs. We are human beings. And so I'm wondering. Dana (22:39) what you see the role of HR in helping leaders to not because it i if these people get burned out and they quit then it costs a lot of money research indicates that it it takes about five if if you have a a a a an intermediate level corporation about a thousand employees it costs them approximately five million dollars a year Dana (23:06) to restaff and retrain employees because they've left because they're burnt out, they're overwhelmed, they don't feel hurt, they don't feel connected. So what do you see? Because I know right now as we're talking, the people that are listening to this podcast right now, there's going to be a percentage of them that are walking this path right now. They might be at work on lunch break. They might be, they might be listening to the podcast on the way home. Dana (23:34) They might be walking on a weekend and their their life is this and they're they're frustrated. I'm wondering what you see as the HR department and also if there's not a department, if they're working for a place that's there's not a department, what they can do, what do you say? How do you train, how do you communicate with the leaders so that they don't end up leaving? Because that costs more money. Timothy Ernst (23:59) Yeah. I think so let let's start with your first question. So what role can HR play? for me, I work with leaders all the time. And it's it's funny when you work in the construction industry or in the heavy hall industry where I'm at now, you always think of of leaders, foreman, superintendents as being these these these gruff guys. I have never worked around a group of people that really had the the desire to do the right thing. Timothy Ernst (24:29) But at the same time, they're just so conflict avoidant. And part of that is the fact that, when they were brought into this profession, or they were, when they grew up into this profession, typically you look and it was their grandfather did it, their father did it. So this is one of those things that it's passed on as a generation. And, even my generation, I'm a Gen Xer by birth. we were taught to rub dirt in it, don't cry, get over it. And, I think today, Timothy Ernst (24:58) it's no, you've you've got to understand that look, when you're talking about people, the entire package means that emotions are going to be involved. That that's part of being human. So we're not cybers. if when I work with my team or when I work with new leaders, what I always do is it's like, okay, you have to get work done as a leader. Your team helps you to get that work done. My recommendation is listen, guys. Timothy Ernst (25:27) Here's what I need. Here's by when I need it. How you get it there is totally up to you. I'm available if you have questions. I'm available if if you get stuck or you need somebody to support or you want to bounce some questions off of me. And then I think what we do is you allow people to bring their strengths to the table. Now, if you're a leader and you've got a crew that's established and you you understand or you know how that crew works. Timothy Ernst (25:57) You give them assignments that allow them to play into those strengths. If you have an employee who says, look, I really want to grow, okay, let's talk about that. Let's talk about what growth looks like. And then I might give them tasks that are stretch assignments. Maybe it's just something they've never really done before. I'm going to give them a chance to try it. And then we're going to use that as a coaching opportunity. Sit down with them. Hey. Timothy Ernst (26:25) Here's the things that you did that were absolutely spot on fantastic. I noticed you struggled here. Let's talk a little bit about that. Now let me share with you why where I struggled when I first started doing this and why. And let me tell you some things that I did to work through that. So again, I go back to be human, peel that onion, share your successes, share your failures. People are not robots. But I think if you can assign tasks that play into people's strengths. Timothy Ernst (26:56) I think you're gonna win it. you're gonna win. You're you are going to win, but in order to play into their strengths, you've got to get to know your people. There's no other way around that. You had a second question in there, and it's a what happens if you're in a smaller organization and you don't have HR and you really need to talk to your manager? This is where I'm gonna ask the question Can you take a risk? Why that question? Well Timothy Ernst (27:24) When I go in and I talk to my manager, it's about, hey, this is what I'm doing today. This is where I see my path. This is the direction that I'm going. How does that align with your vision for me? and then what are some things that we can do together collectively to ensure that I'm going from A to B, B to C, C to D? Timothy Ernst (27:50) And and maybe that path that I have envisioned for myself is a little bit different than the path that my manager has envisioned for me. You're never going to know that until you take that risk and ask the question. Dana (28:01) I like that. And that really that aligns right with the whole the way I teach boundaries is that I I teach it in terms of yards. In our yard are our thoughts, feelings, and actions. And then there's a property line and our neighbors' thoughts, feelings, and actions are in their yard, and we're not responsible for those. Dana (28:20) But we do have a responsibility for our own and to present those to people in a respectful way. And so when we know that, then that's that's a fabulous thing. Now, I wanted to ask before we finish today, I wanted to get your take on, because you're you're you're focusing on people like you you had something in your bio about whether it's growth, innovation, customer service, leadership or culture, all of that requires people. Dana (28:50) that your emphasis has been on supporting people, supporting the person. And organizations grow when people grow. And so you've really you've really championed the person, right? So I'm wondering how you have seen and how you anticipate AI impacting the person's experience at work and what they are Dana (29:17) anticipating what might be coming down the pike and how that might impact their what they're thinking's gonna happen and the fears and all the stuff. Timothy Ernst (29:27) So, Dana, I'm going to say, I think you're probably reading my mind. You started asking that question, and I had this devilish grin on my face. Why? Why would I have Dana (29:33) Yes, you did, I saw it. Timothy Ernst (29:35) that devilish grin on my face? Let me answer that question with another question. when organizations say, we want to grow, we want to be more profitable, we want to expand our offerings, we want to increase production, we want to build faster. How are we going to do that? The answer is simple. Timothy Ernst (29:58) People. Bottom line, everything every organization wants to do involves people. Okay, so AI is, I read all these articles where AI is going to replace this and AI is going replace that. To some degree, yes, I think it will. However, AI is a tool. AI will go out, it will scour the internet, it will gather all of the information. Timothy Ernst (30:26) But it still takes people to be able to translate what AI has produced. AI is never going to put in a footer, dig a foundation, raise a building. AI might teach you a smarter way to do it, but it still takes people to be able to execute that. in manufacturing, you've got all these. Timothy Ernst (30:51) Kanban systems, push, pull, and all these, or it's it's it's all based on inventory. And is it just in time? Is it this? Is it that? AI may be able to sharpen that to where you don't have so much inventory on hand. Because when you look at manufacturing, if you go to a small parts warehouse or you go to a warehouse where they have items stored, that makes accountants sweat. The reason it makes accountants sweat is Timothy Ernst (31:21) That's money sitting there. And if that money Dana (31:22) Mm-hmm. Timothy Ernst (31:23) is not on a dryer or on a car or on whatever that you're building, it's a cost. You don't recoup that cost until it goes on to whatever it is that's going out. And then you don't recoup that cost until you sell it. That's how that wheel works. AI might make you better. Timothy Ernst (31:45) at how you can run your small parts warehouse because you can take all this data and throw it into AI. And AI is absolutely phenomenal with crunching complex data. But at the end of the day, it still takes people to be able to execute. Dana (32:03) Yeah. That you got your points are are spot on. And I I have an example to to to support what you just said. I'm a podcaster, obviously, and people will approach me wanting to guest on my podcast. Well, what AI has done is it's given some interesting individuals a way to communicate themselves, Dana (32:29) through with on on email messaging and they appear one way they appear if I just go off their message I'd be like my gosh this is amazing right but once I dig in and find the profile I find the person I listen to their podcast episodes and this kind of stuff I find out that who the person is Dana (32:55) Their personality, the the the way they are, how they appear on on a podcast is very different than what was represented to me on the message because because they were using an AI tool. So it's it can be used as a tool, but you still at at some point you're gonna be person to person. And you have to really watch out for that. Timothy Ernst (33:14) In about 90 days, I'll have a book. Timothy Ernst (33:17) In about 90 days, I'll have a book that's going to be available. It's called Systems Over Slogans: How Leaders Build Cultures That Perform, Adapt, and Endure. And this is really through the lens of, hey, look, I've been in this industry for for 30 years. these are some things that I've seen. And I've got stories throughout the book. And I always tell people that, the names were changed to protect the guilt. Timothy Ernst (33:41) Unfortunately, you also have to change the names to protect the good people as well, because you just you never know how people are going to react to it. Well, a lot of this is stuff that it's my experience, it's stuff that I've written. It's a lot of the stuff that we're talking about here today. And, I was playing around one day and I was like, if I dropped this into Chat GPT, how it would make it pretty. And it it did. It made it pretty and made it me. It wasn't my voice. It wasn't me. Timothy Ernst (34:11) And that's where I go back to your original question about AI is AI is a great tool. If you want to write an email, man, it can write a flowery email. Sounds professionally written, but does it have your voice? can it help you solve problems? It can. But you still have to execute. AI cannot execute for you. You have to do that yourself. Timothy Ernst (34:40) it's it's it's it's a great tool. it's like your Outlook calendar, it's like your email, it's like, your iPhone, Android, if you're an Android user. all of these things have a place. All of these things are tools. They all help us become better, stronger, faster versions of ourselves. But at the end of the day, this iPhone, it's an inanimate optic. It's just gonna sit there until I pick it up. Timothy Ernst (35:11) I push buttons, I do with it what I need to do. AI is no different. Dana (35:17) That this is this has been such a interesting conversation and I know, there's people listening that thinking I'm I'm walking that, I'm experiencing that. And you mentioned a couple of books. So I wanna make sure that people that are listening and watching, how Tim, how do they where do they find the books? Where do they go? Timothy Ernst (35:37) So right now I'm going through rewrites. So they're not out there, they're not publicly available. Like I said, in about the next 90 days, systems over slogans, how leaders build cultures that perform, adapt, and endure should be available. My goal is to try to get this thing published sometime towards the end of summer, beginning of fall. I started writing a second book on HR as a strategic partner. I'm about halfway through that book. I think that that book realistically probably won't be ready until next year. Timothy Ernst (36:06) and the reason that I say that is when you do a rewrite, all of my spare time right now is really spent focusing on making this the best version that it can be. and one of the things that I'm doing, Dana, one of the reasons that I'm being so meticulous and so methodical with this is I've been blessed. I have stood on the shoulders of giants. I am where I am today because people took a chance on me. I didn't write a book. Timothy Ernst (36:35) Because I'm looking for fame and fortune. I wrote a book because I had this knowledge that I gained and that I through trial and error, I I've worked with. I really wanted to get this out there to be able to share it with executives, with HR practitioners, with those folks that really want to make a difference in their organization. Timothy Ernst (37:00) I'll tell you I've told other people, when this thing is ready, my social media is going to light up because I'm gonna put it out there. I'm gonna stand on the highest mountain. I'll even reach out to you, Dana, let me know, hey, this thing is available. Here it is. because, again, this is something that I really want to be able to share with you. Dana (37:21) So let me ask you, and I know our time is up and we've gone a little bit over, but that's okay. It's my podcast. I can do that if I want to. Timothy Ernst (37:26) I think Dana (37:27) So, here's my last question to you about your book. I imagine there's a lot of books out there about HR. Why would someone why should they pick yours? What is gonna make your book be any different than all the other HR books out there that cover all the the fancy words and the Dana (37:46) the multisyllabic words, da da da da da. Why why should they pick yours? Timothy Ernst (37:53) Well, systems over slogans, the book on culture, really highlights, it's all the things that we talk about in an organization, the importance of communication, the importance of having a healthy mission, vision, and values, and how you use that as the lens for how you make decisions. I worked with a great construction company. And not only did they have a mission and core value statements posted on their wall. Timothy Ernst (38:17) Every meeting we talked about it. It was in action. We closed meetings with it. We lived it. We breathed it. It was the lens through which we did what we did. and that's an example of of how you use that stuff. it was interesting because I I reached out to several people that have influenced me and I said, Hey, would you mind reading this? Tell me what you think. And I got feedbacks from Molly. Molly said, Hey, this is great, you you you Timothy Ernst (38:45) You skirted the issue, but you didn't really talk about it. And that's conflict. And I'm like, my God, you're right. Healthy organizations, conflict is okay. You have to have that in a healthy organization. But how you manage that is important. And so there's chapter seven is just all on conflict. We talk about generational differences. and then the other thing that we talk about, there's these five. Timothy Ernst (39:11) Systems that you'll hear me refer to. I've already talked about one of them daily management. recruitment systems, promotion systems, onboarding systems, and then performance systems. All five of those kind of work like a Dana (39:23) Hmm. Timothy Ernst (39:24) a cog. And when all the wheels connect and all of the wheels turn, the machine works beautifully. But at the bottom, what makes all this stuff go? People, not AI. Dana (39:40) that people that's it we definitely are aligned with that people are the that that they're what makes everything go around Tim thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom and your experience with myself and Phoenix and Flame listeners and viewers today. Thank you very, very much. Timothy Ernst (40:06) David, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Dana (40:08) Hey guys, I know you've heard multiple things today that you're thinking, you know what? I have a friend, I have a coworker, I have a relative that really needs to hear this conversation between Dana and Tim. Take this episode, copy and paste it in text, copy and paste it, send an email, post it on your favorite social media sites so we can grow our Phoenix inflame community and let people know you are not alone. I'm Dana. Dana (40:37) I hope you've had a great day. I hope the rest of your day is fantastic. This is Phoenix in Flame. Are your work boundaries supporting you—or quietly draining you? 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