1 rich Libsyn https://www.libsyn.com 90 600 In this episode, Jack Cochran and Matthew James continue their conversation with Micah Joel, diving deep into the metrics that matter when building and justifying a demo engineering team. Micah shares practical approaches to measuring the value of demo engineering, from simple time-saving calculations to sophisticated surveys that capture SE satisfaction and retention indicators. The conversation explores how to frame these metrics in terms that senior management cares about, moving beyond technical accomplishments to demonstrate real business impact. &amp;nbsp; Micah emphasizes the importance of thinking &quot;top down&quot; when building a demo engineering organization, focusing on what leadership values most: productivity, cost savings, and revenue growth. He shares real-world examples from his time at Salesforce's Q Branch, including how to measure the value of demo environments, how to identify unexpected patterns in the data (like deals where demo engineers get involved), and how cultivating relationships with SEs creates goodwill that extends beyond the numbers. The discussion also covers how demo engineering impacts go-to-market speed for new products and how to position the team as mission-critical support for field teams rather than just a technical function. Follow Us Connect with Jack Cochran: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackcochran/ Connect with Matthew James https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewyoungjames/&amp;nbsp; Connect with Micah Joel: https://www.linkedin.com/in/micahjoel/ Links and Resources Mentioned Join Presales Collective Slack: https://www.presalescollective.com/slack Sol/Con 2026 (Chicago, August 2026): https://www.presalescollective.com/solcon-2026 Presales Collective Podcast: https://www.presalescollective.com/podcast Key Topics Covered Establishing baseline metrics for demo engineering through time-saving calculations Using SE surveys to measure demo environment value and satisfaction Identifying retention indicators at 3-year and 7-year tenure marks Reducing technical barriers to hiring SEs through better demo tooling Thinking &quot;top down&quot; to align metrics with senior management priorities Measuring go-to-market speed and time-to-revenue for new products Building goodwill and political capital with SE teams Branding your demo engineering team with effective metaphors Course-correcting when metrics don't align with expectations Positioning demo engineering within the organization structure Timestamps 00:00 Welcome&amp;nbsp; 02:55 Measuring time saved with tooling&amp;nbsp; 09:20 Reducing technical hiring barriers&amp;nbsp; 13:50 Building the overall business case&amp;nbsp; 18:30 When metrics don't line up&amp;nbsp; 21:20 Product-to-Market (P2M)&amp;nbsp; 27:40 Final thoughts on top-down thinking &amp;nbsp; Presales Podcast by Presales Collective https://www.presalescollective.com/ <iframe title="Libsyn Player" style="border: none" src="//html5-player.libsyn.com/embed/episode/id/40449545/height/90/theme/custom/thumbnail/yes/direction/forward/render-playlist/no/custom-color/88AA3C/" height="90" width="600" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen oallowfullscreen msallowfullscreen></iframe> https://assets.libsyn.com/secure/content/199623245